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Ho229B Nachtjager 1/48 DML

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  • stona
    • Jul 2008
    • 9889

    #16
    The Horten would not have been invisible to British radar in any normal operation. Most importantly the Grumman engineers only tested the materials of nose cone in establishing that the materials used in this laminated structure did indeed attenuate the reflected radar signal. They then came up with figures, using a full size mock up, based on the aircraft approaching the British coast at speed and an altitude below 100' which implied it would be considerably less visible than a Bf 109 (at what altitude we are left to guess). This is hardly surprising as a Bf 109 approaching at 50 -100 feet would in fact be invisible to chain home radar. Mosquitos doing the same thing the other way were just as invisible to German radars. This is a function of early radar, not the aircraft.

    Incidentally the mock up is rather crude. It does not contain the substantial metal tubular frame about which a real Ho 229 was constructed for example. Jet engines were represented by thin plate. It was not finished in original lacquers and the surface finish is one of the critical elements in stealth technology.



    All the Grumman tests really demonstrated was that some elements of the Ho 229's construction did possess properties that might attenuate the aircraft's radar signature and that the shape had a lower overall signature for an aircraft of this size, largely due to the lack of a fin or propellers. To state that the aircraft was truly stealthy is a somewhat wild extrapolation of the limited data.

    The Horten's potential invisibility is one of those internet myths that has grown into a 'fact' by repetition. It did have a relatively lower radar signature but there were no intentional stealth features built into the Horten design and that includes the surface finish which was standard RLM (Warnecke and Bohm) lacquers. The presence of supposedly radar defeating elements in some of the bonding materials used in the construction of the Horten aircraft is likewise coincidental.

    Time lines are important here. When the design was made radar was a VERY new technology and any thoughts of defeating it by stealth were well in the future. The tailess gliders the Hortens (and others like Lippisch) built, which are the direct ancestors of the jet powered 'flying wings', predate radar by several years.

    The first claim for any stealth features in the Horten wings was made by one of the brothers, in Argentina, AFTER stealth technology was being developed in the US, something he was aware of. He even claimed to have deliberately added conducting materials to the bonding materials at this time.

    The moral of this story is be careful in trusting the recollections a Nazi aircraft designer, particularly when he is still designing aircraft and may have a vested interest in appearing to have been further ahead of the game than he actually was.

    Cheers

    Steve

    Comment

    • Guest

      #17
      Gregg thanks for all the great pics,appreciate you taking the time to post them. Steve thanks for the fascinating back story and clearing up some of the myth surrounding this Wing.

      I'm still undecided about the scheme as of yet. Spent most of the day dealing with the fit issues,they were out quite a bit. I was able to manipulate the parts so that 90% of the of the gaps were on the underside. I filled the large gaps with thick ca followed by some good ole green putty. I also decided to paint the starter engine fairings white and used cut up straws to mask them off while spraying the steel color.

      Comment

      • yak face
        Moderator
        • Jun 2009
        • 13844
        • Tony
        • Sheffield

        #18
        Brilliant stuff Trey , I love to watch a real 'knife fight' of a build like this! Its great to see the ways used to overcome problems and i think its something that keeps a modellers skills honed , having to use their initiative and resourcefulness, not to mention patience and stamina!!! Great start on the cockpit and the body is looking good , ive got every confidence that the fit issues will be overcome . keep the updates coming , cheers Tony

        Comment

        • stona
          • Jul 2008
          • 9889

          #19
          I agree with Tony and it's obvious that you have made a fine job of overcoming the reluctance of the kit to go together properly. It looks really nice and clean and what a shape it is. Whatever the technical limitations of the Horten design it is amazing that seventy plus years later it still looks futuristic. It must be the Lamborghini Countach of the aeroplane world

          Did you know that the Hortens never really overcame the problem of steering the thing? Without going into the aerodynamics, their solution was to use 'drag rudders', that is devices to slow down one side of the aeroplane to rotate it, an inelegant and inefficient solution. Lippisch, who I believe was a better theoretical aerodynamicist, couldn't figure the problem out either. The design he developed from his tailless gliders, did have a fin and conventional rudder. That was the Me 163 of course. The problem wasn't solved theoretically until the 1960s and practically on the B-2 bomber in the 1970s, though not many saw the result until sometime in the 1980s.

          Cheers

          Steve

          Comment

          • Guest

            #20
            I'm with Tony, this is an informative build with Steve's knowledge & your modeling skills Trey.

            Plus it's telling me this is definitely not a kit for me to attempt just yet!

            Comment

            • tr1ckey66
              SMF Supporters
              • Mar 2009
              • 3592

              #21
              Hi Trey

              This Horten looks very, very cool. It is a fabulous looking aircraft and I'm really looking forward seeing this futuristic WW2 aircraft model finished. You've got the fit problems licked and the build looks very neat indeed. The paint scheme offers lots of possibilities and is sure to be a real show stopper.

              Great stuff

              Paul

              Comment

              • papa 695
                Moderator
                • May 2011
                • 22771

                #22
                Great work Trey looking forward to more updates

                Comment

                • Guest

                  #23
                  Tony thank you for the kind words ! Steve thanks as well,was unaware of the problem with the steering and the 'Drag rudders' quite fascinating. Looking back at the early flying wings built here in the states I've notied almost all have some small vertical fins at the rear ,so not really a 'true' hard core flying wing in the purist respect of the definition. Patrick thank you, it does have some fit issues,but do'nt let that drive you away from it. Thanks Paul still scratching my head about the scheme,but I'm going to have to decide soon. Ian thanks,not a very good update I'm afraid.

                  Well was actually quite pleased with how the build was going ,that must have been what brought the Gremlins! Actually I've noone to blame but myself. Too much pressure on the Canopy after glueing caused some fine stress fractures and a very fine crack all the way up to the seam.





                  Bad news there is'nt a aftermarket vacum Canopy available for the B version only the A,good news is a fellow modeller here stateside has volunteered to custom vac me a new one . So while I await the new Canopy I'll tackle the gear and missiles.



                  cheers Trey

                  Comment

                  • flyjoe180
                    SMF Supporters
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 12433
                    • Joe
                    • Earth

                    #24
                    Good work so far Trey. A very intersting subject, look forward to more updates soon.

                    Comment

                    • Guest

                      #25
                      Sorry for the issue on the canopy, but model is coming along very well.

                      Looking for more.

                      Francesco

                      Comment

                      • flyjoe180
                        SMF Supporters
                        • Jan 2012
                        • 12433
                        • Joe
                        • Earth

                        #26
                        Hope you get the replacement canopy soon Trey, it's looking good so far.

                        Comment

                        • Guest

                          #27
                          Francesco, Joe thanks hopefully the canopy will be here early next week . In the meantime I started working on the missiles and the landing gear

                          Comment

                          • Dave W
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 4713

                            #28
                            Looking good Trey.

                            Comment

                            • Guest

                              #29
                              Those missiles look like a "tiny planes squadron" attacking your build Trey!!!

                              Comment

                              • colin m
                                Moderator
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 8763
                                • Colin
                                • Stafford, UK

                                #30
                                All looking very nice Trey. Strange subject as well.

                                Comment

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