Hawker Sea Fury F.B. Mk. II

[Guest]

Howdy Guys,

Well, I was "inspired" by one of the other threads in the forum "1:32 scale Fisher Sea Fury" and decided to build the model that I had of this aircraft.

My kit was Hobby Crafts 1:48th scale "Elite Series" model of the Hawker Sea Fury F.B. Mk. II.

This kit contains numerous photo etched parts but only took me about an hour and a half to complete.....painting included.

Anyway, here she is out on the driveway.













Have a good day all,

Greg

[Guest]

Hi Greg,

The other thread you referred to on this plane was started by Nigel D who is sadly no longer with us having passed away late last year.

This plane was clearly a favourite of his and I am sure he would have loved the pics of this one too.

A very nice Model and a very Nice Tribute to Nigel's original thread too

Regards......Mark

[Guest]

Whats the story with the fin flashes?

[wonwinglo]

Greg,you must rank as one of the fastest builders in the world ! it would have taken me that long to find my modelling knife !

She certainly is a most impressive aircraft,Nigel D would certainly have loved to have seen your completed model of his beloved Hawker Sea Fury.

[Guest]

Howdy Guys,

Yes, I knew this was one of Nigels favorite aircraft, but had not remembered that fact until just now.I used to speak with Nigel via threads here often. He and others were the people who really got me interested in the commaraderie (sp?) of this site.

I just wanted to thank yall for the kind words about my various aircraft as I show them in the various threads.

As for me being a "speed builder"......well, yeah I am pretty fast, there are days that I can finish two complete models, but I am happy just completing one a day.

This particular model had markings for R.A.A.F., R.A.F., and R.C.A.F., I chose the R.C.A.F.mostly because it used the largest number of decals lol.

As for the fin flashes.....I am assuming that kiwki is speaking of the red and blue markings on the tail. Since this was a "speed build" and I was only using the marking guide provided in the kit....without doing any real research of my own, I can only assume that since this representation of the R.C.A.F. aircraft (immediately after wwII) would retain some markings from the R.A.F., ...ie....the red and blue markings on the tail. I know that alot of surplus aircraft was given to the R.C.A.F. after the war and some aircraft (not this type specifically) were given to Canada during the war. As a matter of fact, there were many bases in Canada that trained pilots for both the R.C.A.F. as well as the R.A.F.

Anyway, again, I just wanted to thank ya'll for the kind words.

Have a good day,

Greg

"hmmmm now what to build next......"

[Guest]

I hate to be one to rain on your parade but I was wondering. You mentioned you used the marking guide provided in the kit and I wonder where they got their information from as the scheme is one I have never seen before. The colours of the upper surfaces were normally Dark Sea Grey and the demarcation line was a "hard" masked line. This can be seen in the attached photo (albeit an American "restored" example. Note there is no stalk on the wing leaf) The other common scheme was Dark Sea Blue all over.

On the Fleet Air Arm aircraft (the RAF never operated any Sea Furies) fin flashes are never worn however they were present on some Canadian and Australian versions. However they are worn further down in the main body of the fin, touching the leading edge. and the red is ALWAYS forward.

Hope this helps.

[ATTACH]15507.IPB[/ATTACH]

[Guest]

Wasn't the Sea Fury a development of the RAF's "Fury" - with added arrestor hook, folding wings etc?

[Guest]

Howdy guys,

Well you learn something new everyday....this time I learned about "fin flashes"....I had never even heard of a "fin flash" until this thread lol.

As I said above, this was a "speed build" and I wasnt out for historical accuracy, just a way to pass some time on my day off.

The box art showed a more of a "blue" than gray in the rendering. The instructions were in black and white....poor black and white at that, not allowing me to distinguish whether the red at the left side of the aircraft, (western culture reads from left to right) I placed the red first with the blue trailing.

On the right side of the aircraft, (once again "reading" from left to right), I again placed the red first trailed by the blue. The decal placement instructions were vague and being black and white, I couldnt tell red from blue.

As for the sharp demarcation of the upper color and the white on the fuselage......well that was just "artistic license" I have been out of masking tape for about two weeks now, (the last bit having been used on the "Grumman duck"), so the sea fury got a blending line instead of a sharp line.

I do appreciate the information kiwi, it will be helpful on all of my future builds of U.K. aircraft ("U.K." covering its territories, and commonwealths).

As for the service of the sea fury, I really didnt do any research on the plane.......I just thought it was neat looking.

Have a good day,

Greg

[Guest]

It still looks like a good build to me! Despite all the critiscism it got!

One thing - that soft edged camouflage really accentuates the aircraft's FW 190 roots, the patently obvious heritage was lost on me until looking at those pics! I think the high contrast / hard edged line breaks up the outline of the aircraft a fair bit.

[Guest]

Howdy Alan,

First off, let me thank you for your thoughts on this build.

But I also wanted to give some "insight into my outlook" on critisizm. Many years ago when I was much younger, all the kids in my neighborhood got into building models. Models of aircraft, tanks, ships etc. When we would finish a build, one that was usually done in the privacy of our own homes, we couldnt wait for the chance to "show it off" to the other kids. Sure there was the usual critisizm between us kids of each others work...ie "you have a finger print in glue there" or "you built it with the wheels facing inboard instead of outboard", there was the occassional "the plastic is all melted here".

But, it didnt matter to any of us, we were doing something we all liked to do...building models. I am sure that some of us probably took offense to what others said at one time or another but, we learned from those comments or "critisizms" as some might call it.

Now all of the aforementioned comments that were uttered by us kids were critisims of "craftsmanship", not of "historical accuracy".

We all learned along time ago that with models, you can pretty much do whatever you like in the way of decorations, if it wasnt "historically accurate" so what, you had fun building it. But, knowing that it wasnt "historically accurate", because it was pointed out to you by the other kids, you learned and remembered...and your next build included what you had learned.

Now we were just kids and none of us were by any means "Historians", but we had all seen pictures on TV and in books and movies but we were no one to be "criticizing" the others on accuracy.

If you will really read what I have typed above, you will see that what I am saying is:

1. Build for the fun of it, if it makes you happy then great, thats what counts.

2. Never take others comments as "critisizm". Even though that may be the proper word for the comments, try to see the deeper meaning behind the comments, its not that what you built was bad, but there were flaws. Take note of them and learn from them, what better way to learn something than to learn it while you are doing something you enjoy....like building models.

3. Just because the box art shows the model one way, doesnt mean that the depiction is "historically accurate". The same applies with TV and movies....(and this is so true here because unless they are documentaries, they are probably fiction or inaccurate re enactments).

In closing, I do wish to say thanks to Kiwi also, as I tried to say above, I appreciate any comments, positive or negative.....moreso the negative because I can learn from them. This is not saying that I see your comments as being negative or for that matter, I dont even see them as "critisizm". I see them as someone imparting their knowledge to me on a subject that I know I have very little knowledge of...ie... the Hawker Sea Fury.

Now I have aged alot since those days of my youth, all of my old friends have moved away and are living their own lives, I am just happy that I have found a place that, when I build a model I can "show it off" to the other "kids" here.

Whether my models are accurate or not..........all comments welcome, ya'll are the kids in my neighborhood now.

Have a good day all,

Greg

[Guest]

OK, To help with learning more about aircraft markings a good place to start with is the very early days of World War 1 and the origins of different services markings so here is lesson 1

INTRODUCTION

The early aircraft of WW1 were covered with linen, flax or Egyptian cotton rendered air- and water-proof by covering with a thin acetyl cellulose film, that also tautened the covering, in an application process called doping. To protect this finish it was usually covered with a so-called clear varnish, which looked brown in bulk and gave a yellowish tinge to the fabric. No other colouring was considered necessary and the only marking was an identification number.

During 1912 delegates of flying clubs from 13 countries pressed for national identity letters on aircraft but only the French followed up on it.

The French, unlike other nations, had realised the need for national markings and in July 1912 the French Army decreed that its aircraft would bear on their wings an indication of French nationality using the colours of the Tricolour, the French national flag in the form of a roundel of 1 metre diameter based on the cockade of the French Revolution, with the red circle outermost. The markings were not worn on the fuselage. The rudder markings adopted were the three vertical stripes of the Tricolour with the blue stripe leading.

So the roundel form was introduced , later to be adopted by most countries in the world using their own combinations of national colours.

All French military and naval aircraft bore an indication of individual identity by a number or letter, but they went further and made it mandatory for their aircraft to bear letters designating the manufacturer as well as an individual serial. Also made obligatory was an indication of maximum load (Charge Maxima) to which the aircraft had been tested. Many nations were to follow suit by marking the maximum loaded weight on their aircraft. For all these functional markings, black was appropriate as contrasting with the light coloured finishes of the day.

Such were the main markings of the aircraft when the war started in August 1914.

Apart from the French, national markings were not used for some time after the outbreak of war.

Not until it became apparent that such markings were vitally necessary to prevent aircraft being shot down by their own side was any movement made in this direction.

One German Zeppelin, the Z.VIII, crashed in the forest of Badonviller in France on 23 August 1914, after having been damaged by French ground fire and then finished off by German ground fire. Over keen German troops mistakenly opened up on it as it drifted overhead, disabled.

The Germans were not the only ones to be fired on by their own infantry, During the retreat from Mauberge to Mons, the British Tommies, disgruntled by the continual retreating without having been beaten, vented their feelings by firing furiously at anything that flew over – British, French or German.

Such was the novelty of aircraft that untrained observers could not tell one from another.

The ground crews of the four squadrons of the Royal Flying Corps that reached France on 8 August 1914 quickly painted large Union Jacks on the bottom wings of all their aircraft in the hope of reducing the amount of British fire they were subject to. They also marked the national flag on the vertical surfaces as protection from their Allies on the ground. They were usually painted in the form of a shield: a directive went out in October altering this to a full-chord standard shaped emblem. The Union Jack framed by the outline of a shield was therefore abandoned. Forced landings were frequent and the absence of markings, plus the language barrier led those near to the landing to treat any stranded airman as potential enemy. So initially national markings were used to protect aircrew from their friends!

It was found that shape was more important than colour when it came to markings and, unfortunately, the Union Jack, except in the most favourable circumstances , was liable to resemble the German Cross. On October 26, 1914, two men named Hosking and Crean, of No 4 Sqdn RFC were shot down in flames by British troops who apparently mistook the Cross of St George in the Union Jack for the black Maltese style cross adopted by the Germans. With the ageement of the French allies the RFC adopted the French roundel, on 11 December 1914, but with the colours reversed.

Some form of roundel was the basis of the insignias of all the Allied air services. The French with their blue, white and red (reading from the centre), the British with red, white and blue, when the Americans finally arrived they used white, blue and red, the Belgians used black, yellow and red and when Italy entered the war in 1915, they also adopted the Allied practice of roundels and rudder striping, The peculiar aspect of the Italian system, however, was that the red and green circles were interchangeable in position, apparently at the whim of the unit. As no other country was using these colours, there was no risk of confusion.

The RNAS (Royal Navy Air Service) made it’s own ruling and, reasoning that the opposite of a black cross was a red nought, adopted a red circle as its national marking ..To have some form of unity amongst in the British forces, the red white and blue roundel was adopted as the standard British marking from 1 November 1915. When the roundels were adopted, so was the rudder striping but whereas the roundel colours were reversed this was not done with the rudder stripes.

When the British adopted the roundels the regulations were that they were to be placed at the center of the fuselage. The crews objected to the fact that they sat beside a marking that resembled a target (with the bulls-eye at their vitals) and this order was superseded by instructions to mark the roundels aft of the cockpit.

The Imperial Russian air forces used a variety of different markings during the course of the war. The wings and fuselage were marked with a square and a triangle respectively, each divided into white red and blue portions. There was an alternative to this, however, in the form of an optional roundel, with more rings than was usual on Allied aircraft (a white outer ring then red, white, blue and white again in the centre). The Imperial Russian Navy also used a rudder marking in the form of the naval ensign – a blue St Andrews Cross on a white background. The use of these markings was somewhat haphazard, with some large aircraft, for example, having two roundels on the fin, one above the other. The Russians were also unusual in painting a roundel on each side of the tailplane on some types of aircraft.

Rumania’s air force was equipped solely with French aircraft and as her national colours were red, yellow and blue, the white in the French roundel was replaced by yellow in the Rumanian roundel.

Serbia and Greek air forces both used the French insignia.

Japan’s war effort in the air was restricted to gunnery spotting at the siege of Tsingtao in 1914. The markings used were just the simple red disc of the hinomaru.

The story of the markings used by the United States goes like this.

The need for national markings first became apparent during the Mexican-American “war’ of 1915. As a result, a blue star in a white disc was adopted as the marking for aircraft accompanying the US expedition. There was still no ruling on the markings for aircraft at home.

On arrival in France, the air units of the American Expeditionary Force adopted the by- now standard roundel of the other Allies, but with the order of the colours altered to avoid confusion with the roundels of the French and British air forces. These were , from the centre, white, blue and red. The rudder stripes were red white and blue, in that order from the rudder hinge. These markings were always made as large as possible, the wing roundels often extending from leading to trailing edge. Late in 1917, these AEF markings were adopted as standard in the US as well.

Aircraft in the US were finished in a buff colour, while those destined for France were usually painted with a dope that produced a grey finish. The war experience of the Allies had shown camouflage to be vital, however, and the AEF’s air units thus started to use a version of the French system, although very considerable latitude was allowed to the various squadrons.

The US Navy opted for different markings. On April 21, 1917 the Navy chose a variation on the earlier star-in-a-circle motif. This was red-centred white star in a blue disc, while the rudder stripes were the same as the AEF. (In fact, it was the AEF which copied the stripes of the Navy.) In 1918, the Navy adopted the AEF roundel for it’s aircraft in the European theatre in place of the star, but the latter was retained for other areas. Before the war, the Navy’s standard finish had been plain finished fabric, but in mid 1917 a navy-green or navy-grey finish was adopted. The US Marine Corps’ aircraft were in the same finish as the Navy’s, and had similar markings, with the exception of the roundel on the fuselage side. This had an anchor across it.

A point to note is that sometimes the wing markings (especially the star insignia) were place at the root end of the wings as opposed to the normal tip position

end of Part 1

[Guest]

Sorry folks, but I had to do this in 2 parts as it was too long to be posted in 1

Part 2

The Central Powers differed entirely from the allies in the form of their national markings. They avoided the roundel entirely and based their markings on the square, or portions of it, as in the square Turkish symbol and the cross of the other powers, with their straight outer edges. The idea behind this was not initially to make the markings of the Central Powers radically different from those of the Allies, It was more of a fortunate accident, based on the fact that the most obvious symbol for the Germans, the leaders of the Central Powers, was the cross of the Hohenzollern family of Prussia. Thereafter, it was copied by the other Central Powers in form and colour, and became a marking very different and distinct from that of the Allies.

The German national marking, then, was the Cross Pattée, or Iron Cross, from the arms of the royal house of Prussia. This was in use from the start of the war until the spring of 1918. On March 20 1918 it was ordered that from April 15 of the same year the earlier type of cross should be replaced by the Greek Cross, known to the Germans as the Balkankreuze.

Unlike the Allies, the Germans used the same marking on the fin/rudder and the wings. Although the cross basically just that – a black cross - it soon proved necessary to add a contrasting white edge to let the cross stand out against the background colour of the wing.

The difference between the Cross Pattée and the Greek Cross is that the formers arms are wider at their ends than at the centre, where they join, and the latter has straight and parallel sides.

Austria-Hungary used the earlier German markings throughout the war, with the addition of three broad stripes of red and white (white in the middle) on the wingtips of naval aircraft, as a form of ensign. These markings were also carried on the tail occasionally.

Initially the Turks used an emblem based on their national flag, with a white crescent and star on a red square but in 1915 they changed this to black square edged in white. This was done to avoid confusion with red on Allied markings and and to bring the markings into conformity with the black and white markings of the other Central Powers.

Bulgaria’s markings, like Austria-Hungary’s were the same as Germany’s. The cross on the lower wing had no white edging. On the upper surfaces the Bulgarians used a strip of green paint along the trailing edge of the wing to differentiate their machines from German ones.

Hope all this has all been of help and has led to some understanding of what is a very complex subject.

cheers

Nev

[wonwinglo]

Yes,a complex but fascinating subject,there is always the exception to aircraft markings especially in times of war,some bizarre schems have emerged from the mixing of odd tins of paint in the field.

[Guest]

And to add a bit of grist to the mill, British aircraft originally had the Union Flag painted on the tail, but then went to the same markings as the French. i.e blue/white/red striping with the blue leading.

However-

It was notified on August 15, 1930 that the order of colours on the rudder would be reversed. Since rudder striping had first been introduced in May 1915, it had always been blue to the rudder post, then white and red trailing. Now it was red from the rudder post, and this continues today with red leading on all fin flashes. The new instruction, issued to contractors, specified that the change would be effected on all aircraft delivered after Sept 29, 1930.

In service the red portion was to be overpainted blue and the blue overpainted red with a final coat of clear dope or varnish to fix and protect the paint. On all service aircraft, this had to be effected by the last day of October 1930.