Opinions or interpretation of this quote

[stona]

Below is an excerpt from an encounter report filed by a famous USAAF pilot. It's long enough to give context,I do have the entire report.

A sentence starts "I gave him a short burst...." Here's the question. Does "him" refer to the aircraft or the pilot who had bailed out?

Dowding made it clear to RAF pilots during the BoB that an airman descending on a parachute into enemy territory was already effectively a PoW and as such should not be engaged. An airman descending into friendly territory (for him) who would live to fight another day was still a combatant and therefore a valid target.

It's remarkable,but not surprising, how little RELIABLE evidence there is for the frequency or otherwise of men being shot in their parachutes. I wonder if Gladych has let one slip here. I know this unfortunate pilot was not hanging under a parachute,it never opened,but how did a man who was alive enough to bail out suddenly "seem(ed) dead"?

What do you think?

Steve

[Guest]

Well Steve, i recon he shot him as he bailed and then circled to see if he was dead. The question i think, why did he bail from a perfictly functional and intact plane.

I wonder.

Cheers

Andy

[AlanG]

He shot him is my view on it as well.

[Guest]

I think reading the entire text would lead you to believe that he had shot at the pilot however I would imagine it to be extreemly difficult to actually hit a pilot free falling from an aircraft.

I think it is possible that the guy bailed out and his parachute failed and Gladych, realising this, is claiming the kill safe in the knowledge that it is never going to be questioned.

[Guest]

As i interpreted it ...

the pilot was in process of bailing when the shots were fired, the pilot then fell from the aircraft with no parachute opening.

Not sure how this sums up ethically as Steve mentions above?

[stona]

Not sure how this sums up ethically as Steve mentions above?

Firstly thanks for the replies,it is always good to get other opinions on what is a slightly ambiguous phrase. I too reckon he had a shot at the pilot as he bailed out.

Well it was war,not a game of rounders, and a lot of things that we'd rather gloss over happened. Ethically I think Dowding's argument sits okay with me,in which case Gladych would be entirely justified in taking a shot at the escaping pilot anyway.

Interestingly Winston Churchill thought that any Germans descending by parachute should be attacked. Dowding probably disagreed because he was thinking of the consequences of such actions on his own men. The Luftwaffe was bound to return the favour.

There are many stories of Luftwaffe pilots shooting bomber crews in their parachutes when they were descending into captivity and probably a good beating from the local civilian population. Very few can be proven. I don't believe it was commonplace. Unsurprisingly veterans on all sides tend to either deny it happened at all or consider it a rare occurrence,something they'd heard of but not witnessed. Whose to blame them for that.

Steve

[AlanG]

Not exactly the first or last incidence of an american pilot being trigger happy though is it lol

[stona]

Not exactly the first or last incidence of an american pilot being trigger happy though is it lol

Indeed!

Seriously though,on this odd mission,with the Bf109 pilot bailing out,his ammunition expenditure was "60 rounds .50 Cal AP & I" (AP=armour piercing and I= incendiary). He was flying a P-47 so that equates to 10 rounds per gun. Not bad for one enemy aircraft definitely destroyed. Ammunition expenditure,which is always logged on these reports,is often over 1000 rounds.

Boleslaw "Mike" Gladych,the pilot concerned was actually Polish.This may well have some bearing on his attitude towards his Luftwaffe adversaries. Some Polish airmen have openly admitted to shooting at Luftwaffe airmen in their parachutes and can't understand why their allies,at the time RAF, didn't do the same. He served with the RAF before manufacturing some kind of unofficial transfer to the USAAF's famous 56th Fighter Group. He finished the war credited with 17 confirmed victories and settled in the States.

I have a friend and colleague,Nigel Julian, who is currently researching his upcoming book about the 56th F.G. I may well seek his opinion on this too. I think Gladych may very well still be alive and if so,I bet Nigel has spoken to him.

Regarding Luftwaffe pilots shooting at bomber crews in their parachutes,here is an excerpt from an encounter report by another 56th F.G. P-47 pilot,Lt R.S.Johnson.

The intelligence officer has high lighted the relevant part with brackets. Johnson had no reason to make this up.

Here's another example with added bonus data for anyone interested in Luftwaffe exhaust staining LOL.

Cheers

Steve

Edit: As I trawl through these reports,actually looking for information on drop tanks, I found that it was certainly possible to shoot at and hit a man in the process of bailing out. Capt Robert Lamb appears to manage it accidently in this incident.

Steve

[Guest]

.This may well have some bearing on his attitude towards his Luftwaffe adversaries. Some Polish airmen have openly admitted to shooting at Luftwaffe airmen in their parachutes and can't understand why their allies,at the time RAF, didn't do the same.

This was covered recently (in interviews with pilots) in a programme about WW2 dogfights on the history channel, there were some nationalties that had the mentality that aircraft could be replaced but pilots couldn't (hence taking out the parachutist) ... some made the point that the british were of the mind that it was a "poor show" and that it was considered "unsporting"

Maybe they just didn't like seeing them "blow apart" in mid air...(nowt like straight to the point there eh? )

[stona]

, there were some nationalties that had the mentality that aircraft could be replaced but pilots couldn't (hence taking out the parachutist) ...

Hi Colin,I think they had a point.It gives weight to Dowding's opinion that a man descending into enemy territory (for him) is already technically a PoW.He has already effectively surrendered at the point when he abandoned his aircraft.He couldn't be replaced or come back to fight another day and should not therefore be considered a valid target. This makes those Luftwaffe pilots engaging parachutes in the reports above to be pushing the boundaries of what was considered ethical behaviour at the time. Exactly the same applies to a Polish BoB RAF pilot shooting at a German as he floated down to Kent and captivity. It was war,and sh*t,as they say,happens.

Cheers

Steve