Vulcan?

[Adrian "Marvel" Reynolds]

Regarding the Belgrano,,


"Some argue that, the ship being outside the British-declared Total Exclusion Zone would not affect this analysis, since the British Government stated on April 23rd, that ‘the approach’ of any warship or aircraft ‘which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of the British forces in the South Atlantic’ would encounter an ‘appropriate’ response. The Belgrano was neither ‘approaching’ the task force and was it a ‘threat’? That statement was put out while the British task force was still travelling South, as a warning that any approaching aircraft etc might be shot. Once the Task Force had arrived, it then announced on 28 April the Total Exclusion Zone – and, that would have superceded an earlier statement. War was not declared, that is why these definitions were important."


From the inquiry, so sank before war was declared and outside the exclusion zone. Some might see that as a push towards war.


My original point was and is still valid that we always play catch up or scrape together something rather than lead anymore, lessons should have been learnt from this conflict regarding kit and yet going into the 1st Gulf war our kit was still dropping to bits,( I had 3 pair of boots within days) as its supplied by the cheapest vendor so the rich get richer and serving personnel get shafted.

[peterairfix]

If any one can get there the vulcan will be at weston super mare air show this week end

[rickoshea52]

Regarding the Belgrano,,
"Some argue that, the ship being outside the British-declared Total Exclusion Zone would not affect this analysis, since the British Government stated on April 23rd, that ‘the approach’ of any warship or aircraft ‘which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of the British forces in the South Atlantic’ would encounter an ‘appropriate’ response. The Belgrano was neither ‘approaching’ the task force and was it a ‘threat’? That statement was put out while the British task force was still travelling South, as a warning that any approaching aircraft etc might be shot. Once the Task Force had arrived, it then announced on 28 April the Total Exclusion Zone – and, that would have superceded an earlier statement. War was not declared, that is why these definitions were important."


From the inquiry, so sank before war was declared and outside the exclusion zone. Some might see that as a push towards war.


My original point was and is still valid that we always play catch up or scrape together something rather than lead anymore, lessons should have been learnt from this conflict regarding kit and yet going into the 1st Gulf war our kit was still dropping to bits,( I had 3 pair of boots within days) as its supplied by the cheapest vendor so the rich get richer and serving personnel get shafted.

We can argue the toss all day on Belgrano but as far as I am concerned, a belligerent vessel of an enemy nation is fair game regardless of the direction it is pointing. It doesn't take long turn about and sail 36 miles back towards the FI's. The legitimacy or otherwise of her sinking isn't the point rather that even though obsolete she was still a formidable threat.


War wasn't declared by either nation.


On your point of the cheapest vendor, well - 'twas ever thus. Even in business the cheapest option is the best option. Airlines by the cheapest airliners, I buy the cheapest tyres for my car.

[Guest]

A guy I know who's an ex-pat yank who flew F-15s said he reminded himself that his plane was built by the lowest bidder every time he strapped in!

[Guest]

I must admit to having a soft spot for the Vulcan having been stationed at Cottesmore when they were there and then working on them at St Athan from 1970-73. Lots of horrible jobs on them. I especially hated doing the non return valves for the in flight refuelling. These were located in the forward wing root, a pig of a job trying to do a three part clamp up while holding the valve up with one hand putting the rubber seal over the join and trying to screw the two parts of the clamp up with the other, this through two stupid little holes in the bulkhead and sight unseen while balancing on a set of wobbly steps, not a lot of health and safety those days. But to stand underneath one when you are doing engine runs, especially on full throttle is something that stays with you forever.

[Guest]

Falklands


Vulcan. The two raids scared the living daylights out of the Junta. They retained their major strike aircraft in Argentina to counter the Vulcan should it stray ! towards Argentina. The Junta I suspect would have been finished if the Vulcan had struck at Argentina. They must have been dumb struck that an aircraft of this type could reach Argentina. Could bomb Buenos Aires.


The Belgrano. The point about the Belgrano was that their Aircraft carrier was in the north. The Belgrano in the south with 2 destroyers (British Built). A two point attack splitting British Forces. Clever. Why were they in these positions if they were not there to go to war !


The Belgrano, out side of the exclusion zone, was on the very edge of the Burwood Bank an area of sea which is shallow. The Argentinians knew that the Submarines in this case the Conqueror could not follow them over the shallows. What was to do. You sit there in a submarine and allow the dangerous Belgrano to cross the shallows (and not to be able to follow) and attack the British Fleet with the Argentinian Carrier attacking from the north.


No this is war no holds barred. You attack your main threat eliminate them. Conqueror with cabinet approval did that sank the Balgrano Then Admiral Jorge Anaya retired the Twenty-fifth of May Argentinian Carrier to port. The pince movement had failed. From then on there was no threat from the Argentine Navy although the Royal Navy were not to know that. Did not the Argentinians attack from outside the exclusion zone with their aircraft is that not the same as the Belgrano.


British Exclusion Zone. Anything in the zone would be attacked and destroyed. But anything out side that zone with the intention of attacking the Fleet would also be attacked. If you were in charge would you wait for a disaster to happen ? This was war, one side would win, no holds barred, war is a dirty game. It is not a game played to rules as football or cricket. In war you are not nice to your enemy you are there to win to restrict the losses. Last point who started the "game" ?


Laurie

[Adrian "Marvel" Reynolds]

All, almost relevant points if it were not for the fact the Belgrano was headed East away from our fleet and had been doing so for some 11 hours when it was sunk!!!

[Guest]

Actually she was heading around the Task Force the same distance at each part of the Belgrano's course as the map shows. Also say that if Drummond, the RN sub, had found 25 De Mayo she would have suffered the same fate.


This was the communique.


“In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty’s Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. In this connection Her Majesty’s Government now wishes to make clear that any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response. All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly.” This communique was issued thro. the Swiss authorities on the 23 May to the Argentinian Government .


Captain Bonzo of the Belgrano actually stated that the incident was legitimate..


Admiral Enrique Molina Pico, head of the Argentine Navy in the 1990s, wrote in a letter to La Nación, published in the 2 May 2005 edition, that the Belgrano was part of an operation that posed a real threat to the British task force, that it was holding off for tactical reasons, and that being outside of the exclusion zone was unimportant as it was a warship on tactical mission. This is the official position of the Argentine Navy.


Shows the course of 25 de Mayo and the Belgrano.If he was going home why the zig zags he was not aware of a sub then or before with his straight course. If it was going home what was it doing there any way by the Burwood Shallows. What was Admiral Sandy Woodward to do in this situation. If the De Mayo and Belgrano had come at him, which was their intention, he would have been court-martialled knowing that the Belgrano was in this position. The De Mayo tried to launch her aircraft just before the sinking of the Belgrano but thankfully there was not enough wind over the deck. This in itself is enough evidence to show that both units of war had one intention to attack the Task Force.


In The Silent Listener, the book’s author Major David Thorp recounts how in 1984 he was ordered by Mrs Thatcher to carry out an investigation — never published — into the circumstances of the sinking.


Given access to every document related to the Belgrano, Thorp, a member of a highly-secret signals-intercept unit during the Falklands War, describes in his book how he found an Argentinian signal intercepted by the British in which the Belgrano was ordered to rendezvous with other Argentinian warships at a location east of the islands, and well inside the Exclusion Zone.


Just to finish what were these two warships doing in their positions if it was not to make war. They would have been in port. Belgrano was sunk 9 days after the Swiss passed on the communique. After all they knew that 3 RN subs were there it was splashed in news papers all around the world.


Laurie

[colin m]

Good work Laurie.

[Adrian "Marvel" Reynolds]

Your map clearly shows Belgrano headed east as I stated and not north towards the fleet, as for zig zags, whether he was aware or not of submarines as a prudent commander he may have taken action as he saw fit.


I can copy and paste just as many references opposing yours, this will not change the way I feel about the original subject matter!

[Alan 45]

I thought this was about the Vulcan bomber


In Adrian s defence if he don't like the Vulcan he don't have too

[Guest]

I thought this was about the Vulcan bomber
In Adrian s defence if he don't like the Vulcan he don't have too

Very true!

[john i am]

Dogs and their bones they just won't let go woof! Back onto the subject matter and not the Falklands. I personally love the Vulcan big brash n very noisy just like my wife!

If Adrian doesn't like the Vulcan that's his personal choice and we should "all" respect his opinion


Just "my" opinion on the subject.


Others are widely available cheers John

[Guest]

I thought this was about the Vulcan bomber

Oh my god what a naughty boy I am. I will never do that again.


Laurie

[rickoshea52]

I hope you weren't disappointed in getting a roasting Adrian⁉


You mentioned that Vulcan leaves you cold, well in a similar vein I see yet another Spitfire model and don't feel the stir of interest that others might. But like when the Vulcan flew over my house at last years Farnborough air show the hairs on the back of my neck still stand up when I hear and see a Spitfire flying overhead.