Price and quality.....

[BarryW]

In the 'real world', supercars are among the fastest growing automotive sectors. Does that mean that for example Ford should develop and launch a £250k supercar, or do you think they're happy to be a mass market supplier with lower per-unit costs?

Pete

Actually they are in the game of 'supercar' development, the GT2017, £320,000 and sold out. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/gt...fords-supercar

I think this demonstrates my point.

Pete - you perhaps have not grasped just how popular the large scale 'uberkits' are. Blimey, look at the 1/18 scale aircraft now being produced, let alone the 1/32 kits I am suggesting...

Have you ever built a Tamiya 1/32 WW2 warbird?
If not please try it. I assure you that you will love the whole build experience and it would be worth saving for.

[stillp]

Actually they are in the game of 'supercar' development, the GT2017, £320,000 and sold out. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/gt...fords-supercar

I think this demonstrates my point.

OK Barry, you got me there! They failed with their 'premium brands' experiment though, when they bought Volvo and Jaguar.

Pete - you perhaps have not grasped just how popular the large scale 'uberkits' are. Blimey, look at the 1/18 scale aircraft now being produced, let alone the 1/32 kits I am suggesting...

Do you mean there are a lot of them, or that they're selling a lot? Its volume that counts in manufacturing, surely.

Have you ever built a Tamiya 1/32 WW2 warbird?
If not please try it. I assure you that you will love the whole build experience and it would be worth saving for.

Maybe, when I've developed a bit more confidence. I'm returning to the hobby after a half-century absence, and I've only built 6 kits since.

Barry, off-topic, but you suggested in another thread using a nail polish shaker to mix paint. How long do you leave it shaking?

Pete

[BarryW]

Barry, off-topic, but you suggested in another thread using a nail polish shaker to mix paint. How long do you leave it shaking?

Pete

It depends on the paint. using MRP you can see the sediment in the bottom of the bottle so its just until its gone. It does vqry a lot. Not so easy with other bottles but I shake it longer than I hope is necessary,m perhaps shaking all the time I am applying the previous color or preparing to spray.

As for the expensive kits - you just need to look at the amount released in the higher price brackets.

[PaulTRose]

Actually they are in the game of 'supercar' development, the GT2017, £320,000 and sold out. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/gt...fords-supercar

nice if you are rich enough to afford it so you can look down your nose at the poor people who can only afford a Focus

[BarryW]

nice if you are rich enough to afford it so you can look down your nose at the poor people who can only afford a Focus

That sounds a bit like a chip on a shoulder. I suspect that those who can afford a supercar (one of my clients has one, so I have some knowledge) will not be thinking at all about you, me or anyone else. I drive a Peugeot and could not care less about what others drive. Envy is a bad thing and I am just grateful that we live in a free and open and enterprising society that enables people to aspire and work to get better things.

[jameshoughton1997!!!!]

The simple fact is its a god dam competative market tamiya and hkm and some of the other big boys are in competion for the best models at the top end as are airfix and revell who to be fair have really upped there game they both cant afford to take there foot of the pedel in there market ir they could fall behind whic could cause problems

[PaulTRose]

boy have you got the wrong end of the stick lol

[jameshoughton1997!!!!]

Came out wrong meant to be airfix and revell are at the other end of the market as in tamiya are top end airfix are bottom end

[BarryW]

Came out wrong meant to be airfix and revell are at the other end of the market as in tamiya are top end airfix are bottom end

Agreed but my suggestion is that they bring out an additional line to compete at the top end. They are capable of doing so and there would be a massive market opportunity.... I would so love Airfix to upscale and make modest improvements to their 1/48 Defiant, Walrus and Sea Fury - they would sell a lot and no-one else is likely to produce these kits simply because the Chinese and Japanese who dominate the top-end are focussed on their home markets too much. We need a good British (Airfix) or even European (Revell) manufacturer to join the fray.

[PaulTRose]

they are capable but can they afford to?

a plastic injection moulding tool for this sort of thing would cost £8-10k, and something like a large aircraft kit would require multiple tools for each sprue.......how many sprues do you get in a box? 6? 8? dont forget the clear sprue......so thats 50 to 80 grand...........then you have to take in to account the r&d....at least Airfix now have a 3D scanner, as long as you have real aircraft to scan, but that is still a cost in terms of wages etc,,....so before you even make a single kit you are talking 100+ grand.....the dont forget to add stuff like decals and pe design and sourcing so that adds even more....the only way of reducing tooling costs is to either use cheaper tooling material (which dosnt last long, false economy) or simplify the product (as in reduce the quality of the finished product)

injection moulding has very high set up costs but slow returns that takes a long time to pay off those initial costs

a company like Airfix has gone through multiple bankruptcies in its history and are by no means as affluent as people think.........wouldnt take much to take them, or indeed a similar company, under again

maybe the mega large companies in china/japan can afford it as they punt out zillions of kits paying lower wages to the work force? thats one reason why companies outsource to far eastern moulding firms, however the QC is normally lacking...why Airfix moved its production back to the UK from India a few years back

for them to make that sort of financial comittment they would have to absolutely be guarenteed a return to pay off the costs and make enough of a profit t make it all worth while.....and i doubt the market is there for them

why do i know such things?.....spent a life time working in Quality Assurance in manufacturing.....last 2 jobs involved injection (and extrusion) moulding specifically for the automotive industry

[BarryW]

they are capable but can they afford to?

a plastic injection moulding tool for this sort of thing would cost £8-10k, and something like a large aircraft kit would require multiple tools for each sprue.......how many sprues do you get in a box? 6? 8? dont forget the clear sprue......so thats 50 to 80 grand...........then you have to take in to account the r&d....at least Airfix now have a 3D scanner, as long as you have real aircraft to scan, but that is still a cost in terms of wages etc,,....so before you even make a single kit you are talking 100+ grand.....the dont forget to add stuff like decals and pe design and sourcing so that adds even more....the only way of reducing tooling costs is to either use cheaper tooling material (which dosnt last long, false economy) or simplify the product (as in reduce the quality of the finished product)

injection moulding has very high set up costs but slow returns that takes a long time to pay off those initial costs

a company like Airfix has gone through multiple bankruptcies in its history and are by no means as affluent as people think.........wouldnt take much to take them, or indeed a similar company, under again

maybe the mega large companies in china/japan can afford it as they punt out zillions of kits paying lower wages to the work force? thats one reason why companies outsource to far eastern moulding firms, however the QC is normally lacking...why Airfix moved its production back to the UK from India a few years back

for them to make that sort of financial comittment they would have to absolutely be guarenteed a return to pay off the costs and make enough of a profit t make it all worth while.....and i doubt the market is there for them

why do i know such things?.....spent a life time working in Quality Assurance in manufacturing.....last 2 jobs involved injection (and extrusion) moulding specifically for the automotive industry

Interesting.
I have not worked in that industry or quality control but I have been in business for 30 years and have experience in advising businesses in a number of aspects not just related to my profession. (via Chamber of Commerce). Indeed I have set up three businesses myself, all beat the odds trading years after the set up including my current one. Developing new innovative products and being first in market is also an area of success. It is also important to diversify within your competences.

All businesses must review their products and services, identify new markets, invest and innovate on a regular basis. What I am suggesting is just part of being in business.

Companies do not tend to use their own money in this process specially when money is cheap. I think Airfix are in a particularly good position to do what I suggest simply because they have shown the ability to produce exceptionally well engineering kits that have sadly been let down by their manufacturing which has lacked the quality produced in China and Japan.

They have already done the research on the subjects and it would be relatively cost effective to upscale their later, better, 1/48 kits with perhaps some tweaks (the easiest would be just to do a deal with Eduard over the addition of pe, masks and resin). Yes there would be the major cost of production of the molds and, of course, packaging. I hear that they are now producing kits in a bettter quality plastic so the may also now be covered.

There are huge gaps in 1/32 subjects many of which Airfix could fill from the newer 1/48 range. The cost would be a known factor and I am sure that there is plenty of management information to assess potental sales. I am not saying that all the ‘premium range’ should be upscaled 1/48s but that would be a cost efficient way to establish themselves in the market in the first instance.

I am on 32 scale forums a lot and it can assure you that quality 32 scale Defiant, Walrus, Tiffy etc would be greeted with glee. I am certain they would sell well then what? Their research and tooling costs can be geared to producIng kits in three scales with some necessary adjustments of course.

The point is that 32 scale is the place where all the most exciting developments are happening. Just look at the pace and quality of releases and it is no longer Just kits with a real mass appeal being produced. How many 1/32 B17s did HKM need to sell?
That must be a much smaller market than for 1/32 Spitties. Yet it worked so well two versions have been produced with a Lanc coming very shortly. Hobbyboss with their B24 is yet more confirmation of how well these kits are doing.

Yes, there are risks involved for Airfix, but calculated risks and, more importantly, success in businesses does require calculated risk taking and new product development.

[BarryW]

One further point. £100k quoted in development costs for a new kit. As a money man I would consider that peanuts taken in context to produce a product with worldwide sales potential. A success with an initial release will provide data to Inform additional releases before costs are incurred. I really do not see that as a lot of money in context talen over the life of the tooling.

[stillp]

How many 1/32 B17s did HKM need to sell?
That must be a much smaller market than for 1/32 Spitties.

Surely the other way round Barry, the US being a much larger market than the UK.

Pete

[BarryW]

Surely the other way round Barry, the US being a much larger market than the UK.

Pete

But Pete. Airfix sell into the USA. If you look at specialist 32 scale forums you will see British subjects are popular there as well as the Far East.

[stillp]

Yes, but more popular than the good ole' US B-17?

Pete