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**Ian M** · 30 October 2011, 06:51

The link don't work but I know what you mean. I think that the whole nose is from a 110. There is a resin conversion set but can't remember who by.Ian M

**yak face** · 30 October 2011, 07:56

Hi tony, ive googled this and come up with a scrap of info on this link Supermarine Spitfire Photos this should give a basic idea but unfortunately no colour shots. It says the prop and engine were from a 109 G so i suppose a cut'n'shut of the two kits would work. Ian, i think you meant to type 109 not 110 , a spitfire with a 110 nose would be a very heavily armed glider LOL!!! cheers tony

**stona** · 30 October 2011, 08:47

Actually the engine was a standard DB601A common to both Messerschmitt fighters at one time or another. The cowlings were a composite 110/109 concoction. The Spitfire's firewall cross section was very close to that of a Bf110's nacelle.

The aircraft was a Spitfire Vb,EN830,coded NX-X of 131Sqn. It was flown by Sous Lt Bernard Scheidhauer of the Free French Air Force and damaged by flak whilst he was flying a 'Rhubarb' on 18/11/42. He was forced to land at Dielament Manor on Jersey,the Spitfire being only slightly damaged. Scheidhauer escaped from Stalag Luft 3 during the great escape and was one of those subsequently murdered (and I mean murdered,executed is a eupemism in this context) by the Germans.

This link has some piccies and a decent profile.

Unreal Aircraft - Hybrid Aircraft - Supermarine/Daimler-Benz Spitfire

I'd be tempted to go with the yellow undersides shown here.

Cheers

Steve

**yak face** · 30 October 2011, 09:05

Thats even better then, you could use a 109 or 110 for the donor kit! I knew steve would have some info! cheers tony

**Ian M** · 30 October 2011, 09:39

Your welcome tony....:-P

**Guest** · 30 October 2011, 10:46

There's an ongoing build of this at The Unofficial Airfix Modellers' Forum • View topic - Dirk's Daimler-Benz Spitfire if you're interested...

**stona** · 30 October 2011, 11:04

Nice link to an interesting build there Matt. I think that chap has done very well with his adaption of the nose. Also an interesting debate on the colours. I'm not sure what I'd go for but the argument that this captured aircraft would be finished as a Luftwaffe front line fighter is not supported by evidence from other captured aircraft.

The reason I'd go with a yellow underside is because contrary to one of the comments on his build thread anyone flying that aircraft would have been very nervous of his own flak batteries.The average flak gunner would be unaware of the range of the Spitfire in 1943,they tended to fire on any unfamiliar aircraft as a matter of course.Other experimental or captured aircraft,that is types unfamiliar to flak gunners,did frequently have yellow undersurfaces.

One of the gripes of the ATA was that,as they had to fly low,in sight of the ground,to navigate,they were often fired on by our own AAA batteries. You'd think they would recognise a Spitfire,Mosquito etc but they obviously didn't.

Admittedly later in the war Oberstleutnant Fritz Auffhammer was asked to fly a Ta152 from Stendal to Rechlin. He was so worried about the risk of flak engaging his unfamiliar looking aircraft that he ordered it to be painted overall orange. This is confirmed by a written statement signed by Auffhammer and his wingman,Hauptmann Roderich Cescotti (who flew a normally marked Fw190D-9)in 2001.This is definitely one on my 'to do' list

Cheers

Steve

**stona** · 30 October 2011, 12:39

I'll give my opinion on the colour of this aircraft. It's only an opinion.

First I don't see any mottle and nor can I imagine why they'd bother to apply one. I don't see more than one upper surface colour here. I believe the undersurface is yellow. Some point out the apparent lighter shade on the rudder and top of the nose compared to the underside but if you look at the shadow you will see that the top of the nose is in sunlight and the rudder is turned so that the port surface is also well lit.

The propeller and spinner are certainly in RLM 70 (black-green). The upper fuselage is a much lighter shade. I don't believe that this is the other possible green,RLM 71,as the contrast between these two (70 and 71) is nowhere near as great as is evident in the photograph. I think that the upper surface of the fuselage must be in one of the greys,RLM 74 or RLM 75. I'm going for the lighter one,RLM 75 but that's more of a hunch. I think the apparent modulation of the colours is due to the original RAF colours,dark green and ocean grey, acting as a rather expensive pre-shading.

The radiator intake under the wing looks to have a natural metal front part.

Here's the other picture.

The only slight doubt I have is what is going on on the starboard wing tip which is just visible. There is either a shadow or another colour present there. I think the original camouflage 'bleeding' through the Luftwaffe applied colour may explains the modulation on the other wing. I would plump for just one colour,RLM 75,on all upper surfaces sprayed thinly over the original camouflage. It's fair to say that there must be a possibility that there could be two colours,74 and 75, on those wings,a very difficult call.

I'm only home for one day today but I'm going to have a quick shufti and see if I can find any other info on this one!

Cheers

Steve

Edit. I've found a view of the other side but nothing at all to give a definitive answer to the colour conundrum.

Anyone's call whether that shows two colours or one with the previous camouflage showing through,a bit like those blue/grey Malta Spitfires. It does seem to show that the dark area on the starboard wing tip seen in the previous photo may be a shadow. This image does reinforce my view that the fuselage sides were not mottled.

**mossiepilot** · 02 November 2011, 07:59

Sorry I didin't reply sooner.

Thanks to everyone for all the info on this plane.

Should be interesting to build.

Think its gonna take some thought though.

I'll let you know when it takes off, so to speak.

Tony

**mossiepilot** · 02 November 2011, 09:59

Back again.

Just been looking at the UAMF site and the bloke has used a Me110 cowl and then had to mod it anyway.

So the question is, can I do this with just a Spit Vb and a Me 109G ? as I have a bit of money and can afford two but not three kits.

What you guys think.

Tony

**yak face** · 02 November 2011, 16:47

Hi tony , for my two penneth, i'd say cowling in the the photo looks nearer to a 110 than a 109 so maybe a spitfire kit and a 110 kit would be the best compromise. Obviously there will be a bit of kit bashing but that would be the same whichever route you take.Keep us informed whatever you decide to do and good luck, im looking forward to seeing the build , cheers tony

Edit: maybe the airfix dogfight double boxing of the bf110 and spitfire mk IX would be a cheaper route, the main difference between a spit mk VB and mkIX was the engine anyway,so that solves the difference in marks, the only thing that may be a snag is the difference in exhausts on the 110 cowling to the picture of the spit, in the pic they look more like 109 exhausts and maybe a bit lower than on the 110 cowling? I dont know , im no expert on either spits or messerschmitts, just hope this helps in some way!!! cheers tony

**mossiepilot** · 02 November 2011, 21:58

Thanks Tony.

I was looking at the dogfight double in the model shop today. And as you say the Spit is a mk IX and I wasn't sure what the difference was with the mk Vb.

As it is the money burned too hot so I bought a 1:48 Academy Me 109 G-6 instead, I also want to try larger scale kits and I have the paint for this build already in.

So the "double" will be got later, probably for Xmas.

Just a little off topic, does any manufacturer include swaztikas with their decal sets for their current stock. I saw not one.

I have read the posts about selling to countries where the device is banned, but after sixty years, like the figure of Hitler I saw on here recently, its only connection is historical, the NSDAP as a political entity is dead. If it was OK to have it on models during the 70's and 80's when more people could remember what it really meant, why is it now not OK when the only groups that use it are hate groups and the so called "neo" groups.

Sorry, if this is not suitable for the forum please edit or delete it. Just my opinion.

Tony.

**Guest** · 02 November 2011, 22:39

Part of the problem with Swastikas is that they are banned in Germany. I've heard a number of definitions of the law, from "banned in all circumstances except school books and other demonstrably educational material" to "banned in political contexts but legal if very offensive everywhere else".

So anyone making stuff that might get sold in Germany some day (Austria probably has the same law) has to consider they're in a "grey area" and often takes the safe option.

That said, some companies find ways round it. Swastikas are often provided in parts - see for example this sheet of decals for an Me-262 (just above the red/blue stripe on the right). But you can just buy sheets of Swastika decals like this if needed.

It's a very sensitive subject, and I don't think it's true to say that people don't know what it means as much these days as they did in the 70s and 80s - but it's good to be able to discuss it in a mature manner rather than a blanket ban on all mention of the s-word - as happens on the Paradox Interactive forum (makers of Hearts of Iron series of WW2 strategy games).

**mossiepilot** · 02 November 2011, 23:16

Thanks for the sensible reply Matt.

Hope I didn't sound like a rant.

Just feel like modelers should be given the option, kits with seperate decal sheets perhaps with or without so we can choose.

I know its a sensitive subject and I don't have any answers just opinions.

Tony

Ps are WW2 finnish aircraft national markings offensive or just national markings.

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Spitfire with a damilar benz engine

Spitfire with a damilar benz engine

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