Photo interpretation time!

[stona]

It's Sunday morning and I thought it was time for some photo interpretation fun. You can also help me decide what the hell I'm going to put on my next victim which has just entered the later stages of construction.

Here it is,a well known Me262,werknummer 501232. Profile,obviously,from Eagle Cals.It has quite a story which I will reveal with the finished model.

Every single reference blithely states that it carries the red and black chequered tail band of KG(J)6.

This is a detail of the band on the port side.

Despite the profile getting the position of the chequers wrong it can be seen as a two colour band,not unequivocally though.

Here's a detail of the same band on the starboard side.

Can you see my conundrum? I can see the black chequers and just about an outline for the red chequers but not the red chequers themselves. I can clearly see the camouflage colours and even the upper/lower demarcation running through what should be a red square.

What's going on?

Do I apply the red and black decal and call it close enough? Not really my style.Alternatively do I spray a red and black chequer with the colours in the right place or just spray the black and leave the red off?

Is it even possible that I've noticed something that all the eminence grise of profile painting have missed?

Any thoughts,opinions or abuse most welcome.

Cheers

Steve

[Ian M]

Dude thats a good one!

My thoughts;

The first picture, port side it looks very much like the band is indeed red and black. There is some difference in tone between the green of the tail and the "red" of the chequers. The bottom two blocks looking as if they are elongated to the centre line.

The secondpicture, the starboard side, looks like it has not finished. The squares that should be red appear to have the same grey tone as the rest of the fuselage and as you say the demarcation of the under surface colour is very clear. It looks to me as is there is a thin line marking the boarder of the band. The 'red' square at the top looks as if it is painted.

So was the photo taken before they where finished? Did they run out of paint? Was the painter just taking a couple of under construction photos?? lol.

Well thats what I can get from it. An interesting subject yet again Steve.

Ian M

[spanner570]

Don't you just luuuurve quizzes?

Try this Steve....

When I first looked at the pictures I went for just the black, but if you look closely at the second picture, you can just make out a faint line connecting the black squares.

On your first picture there is also what looks like a very, very faint difference in the shade where the red should be.

There is certainly the faintest of shade difference.

My dear Watson, it is my guess that there is actually red present, but as we all know, red is notoriously bad for fading very quickly and will soon end up very pale, particularily when subjected to flying conditions.

Yep, I reckon the red is there.....but only just!

Cheers,

Ron

[Guest]

If it was my call I would go for the coloured graphic depicted as all the references point to this. That is if I have understood your text Steve.

I would only change if I had conclusive evidence that it was otherwise.

I have read that, as opposed to the RAF, the Luft. were partial to painting their own on the airfield. That would be interesting Steve to know if this was true & to what extent. Always seemed, with German discipline, that it would have been the other way around ie RAF pilots doing there thing. Especially with so many University Students as pilots who would have been very individually motivated.

Laurie

[papa 695]

Hi Steve on the port side you can see a different colour ( although slight ) to the main camouflage, on the starboard side you can see the edge line of the so called red square, but the sun is on that side could the demarcation line you think you see through the red squares not be the sun shinning on that side making it look like the demarcation line ? you know on a wet/ glossy side ? Just a thought

[Ian M]

I still hold the not yet done. They have painted the one side all they could reach. Bottom, port side, and over the top. More likely starting at the top..

Then have moved round to paint the other side. It would of been marked up in one go, thus the fine line that can be seen on the starboard side where the red blocks should be.

I imagine that the job was finished at some point. So you could go for the completed band. You are right about one thing though; the chequers are the wrong way.

Ian M

[stona]

Very interesting and thanks for the rapid input chaps!

I'm here at the moment.

So I won't have to leap to a decision. I tend to agree that on the port side (first detail photo) both colours are present). On the other side I can accept that the red is present in the square nearest the spine but lower down?

The Me262 fuselage is pretty much a slightly rounded equilateral triangle so I can't see that that demarcation in the lower square (level with the lower arm of the balkenkreuz) is a trick of the light. I have the advantage of having seen this,the full photo. The sun is high in the sky.

(From Me262 The Production Log Dan O'Connell.)

I just can't see the red below,possibly,the upper chequer. Maybe it was simply unfinished? This is always good fun,please don't imagine that I'm going to lose any sleep over this

Cheers

Steve

[papa 695]

Now iv'e seen the full picture my answer was pants anyway looking good so far Steve

[spanner570]

Now I see this picture, I reckon Chief Inspector Ian M has it dead right!

I don't think there is any red on the stbd. side ,perhaps just one on the top..... and the line we can see is the scribe line ready for the application of the red colour.

Ron

P.S. my diagnosis was pants too!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Copied port image onto pc (better tone on that one), took samples of the two areas in question and ran a histogram on the resulting two samples of each shade of grey.

The area proposed to be red showed

[ATTACH]39455.vB[/ATTACH]

This is fairly consistent with "red" when viewed in greyscale in my software

The area proposed to be green showed

[ATTACH]39456.vB[/ATTACH]

This is moving towards what "green" gives in the software

There are differences in the median area of the chart so ......there could be an original "colour" difference (taking into consideration the age and degraded quality of the greyscale image we have to work with).

Not at all definative but maybe helps prod you in a direction to help you make a desicion.

[ATTACH]43373.IPB[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]43374.IPB[/ATTACH]

[stona]

I have read that, as opposed to the RAF, the Luft. were partial to painting their own on the airfield. That would be interesting Steve to know if this was true & to what extent. Always seemed, with German discipline, that it would have been the other way around ie RAF pilots doing there thing. Especially with so many University Students as pilots who would have been very individually motivated.

Laurie

The camouflage schemes were strictly laid down and approved by the RLM (Air Ministry) as applied at the factory. The colours were also strictly regulated,only minor differences in shade being acceptable. The RLM adopted the Warnecke and Boehm single coat lacquers and these were manufactured "from the original manufacturer's recipe" under licence by many companies including some of W+B's former competitors. Some slight variation was inevitable. The exact interpretation of the scemes also varied slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer. One researcher has identified several versions of the factory scheme applied to Bf109Es and is currently trying to tie these to individual manufacturers (Messerschmitt,Fiesler,Arado etc) or plants (good luck!).

The size and application of national markings was also strictly controlled and they were applied relative to various data points on the airframe to ensure that they went in the correct place.

Very late in the war some anomalies did appear,mainly because of the dispersion of the aircraft industry and the assembly of numerous sub-assemblies produced at numerous plants.

Once accepted by the Luftwaffe and sent to a unit just about anything could happen. The camouflage was often altered substantially according to local conditions. Codes and Gruppe or individual Stab markings varied in style and application as well. The RLM seems to have reacted to changes made by the units after the fact. Units on the channel in the BoB first mottled the sides of their fuselage and then started using grey colours mixed locally. This morphed into the official and familiar RLM 74/75 scheme adopted by the RLM later which was used until late in the war when the defensive RLM 81,82,83 were adopted.

I don't think this is true of the RAF where,despite some anomalies,usually as a result of misunderstanding,the official Air Ministry orders were closely followed.

There is a reflection of a different ethos between the two air forces in this. The Luftwaffe glorified the individual warrior,gave them Knight's Crosses and used them for propaganda purposes.They were featured in news reels and became household names,eventually,in some cases,recieving elaborate funerals.

This sort of thing was very much discouraged in the RAF where the emphasis was far more on a team effort,not individual achievement. The Douglas Baders,Johnny Johnsons,Ginger Laceys etc became better known to the public at large at the end of the war than they had been in,say,1940.

Cheers

Steve

[stona]

Wow Colin,very scientific,I'm impressed. The proposed chequer pattern is red and black for this unit. If I've got this right this would indicate that the red is indeed present on the port side.

Now everyon'e had a look at the full starboard image I suppose it's only fair to show the port one though it's not very enlightening I'm afraid. I was being a bit to clever showing the detail crops,I wrongly thought that it would help,sorry.

This is inconclusive for me. The scribe line that Ron sees as well on the other side may be causing me to "see" a colour block when infact it is just the camo colour. On the other hand the demarcation line definitely doesn't run through the lower "red" chequer.

I could do this band on my model with the port side in two colours and the starboard side unfinished,just the black chequers apart from the top square. It would certainly be different!

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

hey there

ive been looking into your me 262,it seems like the american made the red checker go round the tail the whole way someone mentioned the the red stopped on the top and neutral colour from the top went round the other half with the black checker although its photo interpretation time in this case. ole aka mobear

[Guest]

Wow Colin,very scientific,I'm impressed.

Thanks, just thought it "could" help a bit ..... had a look in a few filters as well but the jury is still out mate sorry.

I could do this band on my model with the port side in two colours and the starboard side unfinished,just the black chequers apart from the top square. It would certainly be different!

Not sure how much you're into dioramas but could you do a little one with this plane half and half (as you say above) and have a few chaps around the tail end holding painting equipment of some sorts????

Would relieve the need for historical accuracy a tad eh??

[yak face]

Im with the ' one side finished , one side half finished ' camp , steve , it may be that the pic was taken before it was finished . Am i right in thinking that these pics were taken on the capture of the aircraft ? In which case it probably never got finished . cheers tony