BOB Spit/Huri question

[Guest]

I got the airfix 1/72 Huricane Mk1 out of the box after it chucked it due to extreme disapointment with re-srcibing effort. (this damn model will NOT beat me! LOL)

Then I got the idea to do a Deo-Dio. I have the Airfix 1/72 Bf110 in the stach (France 1940 decals)and will do it and pose it as "advesaries" The 110 Vs. the Hurricane Mk1.

I will also get the airfix Spit Mk 1 and the Academy Me 109E to do the same.

OK, so I eleberated on that story to ask you this question - Did the Hurri Mk1 and the Spit Mk1 both operate during the BoB , and would the Hurris mostly take on 110's and bombers vhile the Spits played with the 109's or was it a free for all?

Was the cammo on the early RAF planes hard masked?

Thanx

Theuns

PS. does Airfix do a 1/72 109E and how does it compare to the Academy E?

[Ian M]

As far as I know the Hurricanes went to France and the Spitfires Stayed home at the start of things. At a later point the Hurricanes went up with the Spitfires. However the Hurricanes where told to go after the bombers whilst the Spitfires Went in against the faster fighter escorts. As to which marks where flying at which time in the battle; I will leave that to some one a bit more clued up on the subject.

My initial thought is yes they where, but dont take my word for it...

Ian M

[stona]

Hi Theuns,

1 The Hurricane MkI and Spitfire MkI both operated together during the BoB.

2 The idea that the Hurricanes took on the bombers and the Spitfires the escorts is a bit of a myth. A squadron,no matter what type it was flying was detailed to intercept a raid depending upon their position and state of readiness,not any particular element of that raid. It is entirely possible that a raid might be intercepted by units who were all flying Hurricanes for example.

3 I believe that the factory applied camouflage on RAF fighters was applied using masking mats. This would give a hard edge,certainly in scale. Even if mats were not used,which I doubt, the regulations for the demarcations were very strict,that's why mats were used. They would certainly appear hard in scale.

Here's a couple of Hurricanes with nice demarcations visible.

And a Sea Hurricane,different colours,same principal.

If you want to see how Spitfires were painted at the point of production take a look in the factory.

Here's a rare colour photo from 1940 and a nice formation sporting A and B schemes.

And finally,not a MkI but thoughtfully crashed to give us a nice view of the upper camouflage.

Cheers

Steve

[Ian M]

Fair point Steve, I was only going after what a couple of BoB pilots said in a documentary on the box a while ago.

Ian M

[stona]

Ian both Spitfires and Hurricanes were sent to France,there was (as in the BoB) a majority of Hurricane equipped squadrons.

As for those pilots the myth of the Spitfire is strong indeed! I've read a lot of contemporary pilot accounts (from both sides)not tainted by the development of the myth,which would tend to contradict them.

Once the RAF engaged the Luftwaffe formation I think the one word I would use to sum up their accounts would be confusion,for both sides! The RAF tried to attack the bombers,they were the threat,but it was easier said than done,particuarly as the Luftwaffe fighters were trying to prevent precisely that.

Memory is a dynamic thing and this disappearing band of remarkable men are human too!

Here's a photo of 11 Group HQ at Uxbridge.

You can see the names of some of the seven sectors under 11 Group on the wall in the background as well as the numbers of the squadrons in each sector.The sectors you can't see are Tangmere and North Weald. No indication of what type the squadrons flew. If they were in the right place and state of readiness (as indicated on the vertical chart) they'd be sent to intercept the raid.

Cheers

Steve

[Ian M]

Give you that, I sould of said that it was mostly Hurricanes that where sent to France at the start. The Spitfires being much harder to build, there were more Hurricanes available. This is also the reason that there where many more Hurricanes than Spitfires. Some thing like one in five wasn't it.

Ian M

[stona]

The figure always given for the BoB (not sure of what date is being counted) is 34 Hurricane squadrons and 19 Spitfire squadrons,roughly 2:1.

The kill ratio is very similar too,55% for the Hurricanes and 43% for the Spitfires. The Spitfires doing slightly better.

The Spitfire was harder to build but we had moved quickly to war time production expecting a long haul,something the Germans singularly failed to do. I have read that a Spitfire MkI took three times the man hours to build that its contemporary Bf109E did but am very wary of such figures. Like the unemployment figures there are many ways in which these can be calculated or fudged! What matters is that the British aircraft industry comprehensively out built its German counterpart throughout this vital period. We were never short of the two principal fighters in 1940.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

One small point, Spitfires, though sent to France, never (voluntarily) landed in France, since Dowding refused, point-blank, to let them go, even though he came up head-to-head with Churchill, who'd promised them to the French.

The ideal was for the Spitfires to cope with the fighters, leaving the bombers for the Hurricanes, but it rarely worked out that way; even Leigh-Mallory's much-vaunted "Big Wing" is now known to have been a complete failure, in this respect, since it was too unwieldy, and had to (try to) chase the enemy after they'd bombed.

The Germans didn't have an equivalent to the Civilian Repair Organisation, which sent dozens of repaired aircraft (both types) back to the front line, and we were far quicker to employ female labour in our factories, and to have factories working double 12-hour shifts, as well.

Edgar

[stona]

Thanks Edgar.You are quite right about the Spitfires in France Ian. I thought that they were actually based in France and I stand corrected.

A good point about the Luftwaffe's repair system which was very unweildy. I have a schematic for it somewhere which looks like one of those horrible logic flow charts those of you old enough to remember early computers would recognise. Anything above 10% damage at the time of the BoB would probably find itself,eventually,on a train back to the Fatherland. It wasn't going to be back anytime soon. Anything less than 10% didn't generate a report up the repair chain and was supposedly fixed at the front.

Anything with above 10% damage CAUSED BY COMBAT (I'm not shouting,italics have defeated me!) was probably going to end up on the wrong side of the channel in an English field.At least damaged RAF aircraft could usually get down in friendly territory,as could pilots forced to abandon their aircraft.

In a battle decided by small margins these things really matter.

Cheers

Steve