Badder's hurricane ?

[Alan 45]

Hi AlanHannants do full sets of code letters (Extra Decal) in a variety of sizes in most scales. I'm sure that they will have the size of letters you want. I may even have some in the stash myself. If I have them I'd be glad to send them on.

I'll take a look.

Cheers

P

Thanks Paul that's nice of you to offer

I should get the kit on Monday I was hopping for today but posty must have left it on the side So if they are not in the kit I'll pm you and we can talk about a price

Thank you so much for the offer

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

I've measured the code letters off the PCM Hurricane and worked out that the code letters are 28" on the real aircraft, I'm not sure if this is a regulation size but that's what they work out at when measuring the decals. Please bear in mind that all of the decal options in the PCM kit have codes of differing heights and I'm thinking that in 1940 standardisation may have been a 'nice idea' but in practice was still implemented by individuals with their own take on typography! (Might need verification on this thought though by someone with a little more knowledge than me! )

I'm afraid I don't have those size of codes in 1/48 I have only a variety of 15, 16 and 18" letters in both Med Sea Grey and Sky.

Sorry, I tried

[stona]

Hi AlanI've measured the code letters off the PCM Hurricane and worked out that the code letters are 28" on the real aircraft, I'm not sure if this is a regulation size but that's what they work out at when measuring the decals. Please bear in mind that all of the decal options in the PCM kit have codes of differing heights and I'm thinking that in 1940 standardisation may have been a 'nice idea' but in practice was still implemented by individuals with their own take on typography! (Might need verification on this thought though by someone with a little more knowledge than me! )

You are correct to say that there was much variation!

The decision to mark all RAF aircraft with a system of code letters was taken after the 1938 Munich crisis. The letters were to be applied in Medium Sea Grey paint and be 48" high and applied with 6" wide strokes. There was no standard font.

It is obvious that a 48" tall letter is too big for the RAF's single engine fighters, particularly the Spitfire with its slim fuselage boom. You will see early attempts to squeeze these over sized markings on whilst trying not to impinge on the national markings (roundels) as these were not to be over painted. 32 Squadron even ignored this with the G or Z of its code (depending on which side) well and truly over the roundel !

Most Spitfires and Hurricanes seem eventually to have ended up with codes about 30" tall, which coincides nicely with your calculation. The only way of making an accurate estimate is from a photograph of your intended subject, or at least one of its squadron mates.

Incidentally at the same time the rules for squadron badges (as approved by the King) changed. They could still be carried but now had to be removable "at short notice" leaving no visible trace. This, like the new code system, was for reasons of security.

For the same reason all squadrons were supposed to have their squadron code changed at the out break of the war. Inevitably some did not leading to all sorts of fun and games. For example the letters QJ were allocated to 616 Squadron pre-war. 92 Squadron was allocated GR. At the beginning of the war 92's codes were changed from GR to QJ (though they were still carrying the old code over Dunkirk). 616's codes changed from QJ to YQ. 92 might have been tardy in adopting its new QJ code but 616 didn't adopt its new YQ code until mid 1941. The result was two squadrons, both equipped with Spitfires, flying around with the same code letters for about a year. That would have confused the Germans!

Cheers

Steve

[Alan 45]

No problems Paul thanks for the offer I appreciate it

I always wondered why the lettering on fighters didn't look the same now I know thanks Steve for your info it's great to know if I ever want to go a bit pedantic on a build

[tr1ckey66]

Hi Alan

Here's a link to the 30" codes

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X48022

I'm assuming you have the sqn badge 'Hitler's ass kicking'?

Steve, great background info as always and a clear explanation of a the confusing anomalies to the system. I know 32 sqn has absolutely huge codes (they can be seen on the gate guardian Hurricane at Biggin - probably an aircraft I will model), I also knew that 92 squadron shared the same codes as 616. 92 sqn was also based at Biggin (92 sqn being Geoffrey 'First Light' Wellum's sqn). In fact 32 and 92 sqn aircraft form the gate guardian pair at Biggin with Wellum's Spitfire accompanying the 32 sqn Hurricane.

I'm sorry to morph this thread Alan and I truly do hope you sort your code letter problem but this sort of info is just fascinating to me.

Cheers

Paul

[Alan 45]

Cheers Paul that's very useful and don't worry about the thread I'm sure it's been a big help to many it certainly has me

I've been told that the hitler ass kicking decal is in the kit although only one of them

[stona]

I've been told that the hitler ass kicking decal is in the kit although only one of them

I don't think anyone really knows for sure whether the art work was applied to both sides or not. I formed the opinion (and that's all it is) that it most likely was. I don't think there is a right or wrong here

Cheers

Steve

[Alan 45]

I don't think anyone really knows for sure whether the art work was applied to both sides or not. I formed the opinion (and that's all it is) that it most likely was. I don't think there is a right or wrong here Cheers

Steve

Thanks for that Steve I'd have thought it would be on both sides as many aircraft with similar signs were but I don't think it's really important

Thanks for all the info on this it's been a great read and a real insight into the man and his aircraft

[Guest]

Just got in on this.

First I do not have any qualms about all the history introduced within a model article. In fact I welcome every bit of inf. It brings the model to life otherwise it is just a nice looking thing with no background.

On the Bader thing and having read so many books both auto and biographical plus documented I see Bader as an obssesed ego seeking man. It is a pity as he was a man who obviously loved his country.

Unfortunately Douglas Bader ruined the reputations of Park and Dowding. But more depressing is that Bader had Leigh Mallory as his commander a man who was swayed by the wind and consequently as any one without a mind of his own not a decisive decision maker. Bader took every opportunity to exploit this weakness as it was.

Worse Leigh Mallory became part of the Normandy landing team and did not stand his corner and for which the allies suffered. If only Park had been there a decisive man if ever there was.

Laurie

[stona]

Unfortunately Douglas Bader ruined the reputations of Park and Dowding.

Laurie

Not Bader Laurie. He was certainly used by much more senior officers (and politicians) in the conniving do remove Dowding and hence Park but he was a mere Squadron Leader in 1940 and didn't have that kind of authority.

There were other officers more or less openly disloyal to Dowding. Leigh-Mallory was rewarded for his allegiance to Sholto-Douglas and disloyalty to Dowding. Flight Lieutenant Sir Peter MacDonald MP, adjutant of 242 Squadron, abused his parliamentary position to lobby Churchill in order to undermine Dowding's authority. Wing Commander Kingston-McCloughry anonymously wrote a scurrilous document against Dowding which was circulated throughout Government by Irene Ward MP amongst others. She has been described as 'the prototype of the critic whose criticism becomes shriller with ignorance'.

At the Air Ministry Dowding was opposed by Sir Archibald Sinclair. Fatally he was on the wrong side of Lord Trenchard who, with the prompting of Sir Geoffrey Salmond lobbied Churchill with poisonous effect. Even Sir William Freeman (Portal's right hand man) realised too late the injustice being done to Dowding. Harold Balfour MP, Under Secretary of State is culpable by his inaction. He failed to even attempt to modify Sinclair and Portal's hostility to Dowding.

Bader was in this camp and his criticism of Dowding's conduct of the battle, behind his back, does amount to disloyalty, but Dowding was ousted by men far above his rank and pay grade. Sholto-Douglas, Sinclair and Salmond were the effective ring leaders. They made good use of their juniors, like Leigh-Mallory and Bader, and influenced their seniors like Trenchard and, ultimately, Churchill.

Both Dowding and Park's reputations may have been damaged by the events of late 1940 but they are secure today. I bet nearly every member of this forum would know both their names, but how many of the others above would they know? Sinclair? Salmond? Freeman? Irene Ward MP? even Balfour?

Apologies again for the diversion! I've spent a lot of time reading and investigating precisely this subject

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

No disrespect but no in my mind Bader Steve. Not doubting for one moment what you say.

But if Bader had not been there then he could not have used Leigh Mallory neither could Leigh Mallory have use Bader. Bader had a strong personality and Leigh Mallory a weak one.

Without speculation no one knows what the result would have been. Cancel the two out and all those who were after Dowding would have had to find another catalyst. But would they ?

Interesting to speculate if Dowding had got it wrong and. Parks and Leigh Mallory had had their groups reversed. How would Parks have controlled Bader perhaps well and Bader would have done as he should have been instructed.. The master wagging the tail!

Fortunately Dowding got it right. But as in Shakespeariana terms perhaps signed his own demise.

Laurie

[stona]

Ultimately the operational consideration that did for Dowding was his inability to deal with the Luftwaffe by night. It is important to say that given the state of air interception (AI) and ground control interception (GCI) radar at the time nobody else could have in any case.

The Big Wing controversy was used to discredit Dowding but it was just one of a series of manoeuvres used to oust him. Bader was used, and was important, in this one episode of the series.

The reasons for Dowding's removal are many and varied. Which carried more weight is a subject on which books have been written.

1. He was 58 years old.

2. He had been AOC Fighter Command for four years and needed a rest. Four years WAS a long time.

3. His relations with the Air Ministry had been difficult since 1937.

4. He failed to resolve the 'Big Wing' controversy.

5. There was an urgent need for a response to the night time bombing and Dowding failed to grasp this.

6. There was a need to enter offensive operations over the Continent and Dowding was not the man for this job.

7. Dowding was not a good co-operator and had allowed the serious and dangerous deterioration in relations between two of his Group commanders.

8. Churchill and Beaverbrook came to appreciate that a new man was needed.

I don't agree with all those points but they remain nonetheless valid. They are reasons suggested by a variety of authors (Ray, Haslam, Richards, Cox, Orange et alter).

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

My opinion Steve is that Churchill kept coming up against a brick and just did not like brick walls.

Unlike Montgomery he did not have a friend in the camp. Ie Brook.

Very interesting subject history and the speculation of history.

Laurie

[stona]

My opinion Steve is that Churchill kept coming up against a brick and just did not like brick walls.Laurie

Churchill did support Dowding up to a point. I agree that Churchill didn't like brick walls

I edited above to remove the reference to health as that applied more to Park than Dowding.

Cheers

Steve

[flyjoe180]

Interestingly Bader in later years mentioned “The awesome responsibility for this country’s survival rested squarely on Keith Park’s shoulders. British military history of this century has been enriched with the names of great fighting men from New Zealand, of all ranks and in every one of our services. Keith Park's name is carved into history alongside those of his peers"

What is often forgotten in the midst of the controversy surrounding the treatment of Dowding and Park after the Battle Of Britain, is that Park yet again went on to effectively deny and defeat the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean Theatre, particularly during the Malta Campaign. Park succeeded Sholto Douglas as Commander Middle East Command in 1944, and was made Allied Air Comander South East Asia in 1945. A Spitfire he donated to the Auckland War Memorial Museum is still there along with his dress uniform.

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