Does it take time or talent?

[Steve Ski]

I’ve never inquired about this subject before on any other site, but yall are some pretty mellow, well-rounded gentlemen, so I thought I’d get your input. I know I’ll get an honest answer. I’ll try to keep it short,……….ya right. I did say try,........................:smiling5: I may post this question on another site as well; their figure traffic is lower than I'd like to see.

This is more of a motivational set of comments to encourage some of my fellow “paint sniffers” to explore the less traveled road of figure painting, as well as to ask your thoughts on the concept in general. The figure boards on most model websites seem to be the least traveled, unless of course the site is specifically tailored for figures. So, feel free to share your thoughts, if you please. I’d love to hear them.

First off, so you know where I’m coming from in all this, my personal background is very simple. When it comes to figure painting, it was the very first thing I was ever taught to do correctly, and it stuck. All I saw sitting on that desk of the man who lived down the street, (Chief Editor of Campaigns Magazine, Donald Burgess), was a 120mm figure that I thought was so real that it could walk and talk. That so greatly impressed me as a kid that it has stuck with me from way back in the mid 70’s, and it’s never left my mind’s eye ever since.

I have no traditional artistic training, no color theory, no oil painting lessons, just trial and error and bookoo hours of practice. When I started playing with kits, I could put plastic together all messed up just as good as any kid on the block, back in the late 60's. Who cared what it looked like, it was going to crash and burn in the next toy soldier battle anyway. How many of you remember that?

So why don’t we see much traffic in the figure sections? Quite a few models do come with figures, and at some point-in time, we might find the need to have a few go along with our builds. Personally, from what I've heard over the years, there can be numerous reasons from, I don’t want to bother with them, mine aren’t good enough, or some may be intimidated by the whole concept altogether.

Whatever the case may be, anyone and everyone can paint figures if they have the desire, and are willing to put in the time to learn. It doesn’t happen overnight and like I always say, “Nobody was ever born with a brush in their hands, and if they can do it, so can I.” If you take that attitude, you can see results quickly. I’ve seen it happen many times over the years and I love it!

So, if I’ve raised a few eyebrows in interest, I say, Ruck On! That’s a good thing.

How to get started: pick a simple kit, figure or bust, decide your medium (acrylic or oils), get a decent set of brushes, and study the process. Youtube is your friend, and many great tutorials can be found there. But, your most important necessity, other than a willingness to try, is practice, practice, practice. I’m nobody special, and I claim no fame to any theory or special technique, so just find what works for you and use it. Also, carefully observe other's work and scrutinize every minute detail that is there, or is not there, and learn from it. Over time you will naturally spot techniques and processes that will be useful to your own work in the future.

Lastly, remember you will always be learning, cause if you ever think you’ve arrived, you haven’t, you just took a few steps backwards. There is always something more to learn, and not to mention, more incredible talent out there that makes you and me look like a Candy Stripers. Just take a gander at Putty&Paint.com, its jaw dropping how some of these artists can paint.

So, back to my question, “Does it take time or talent?” Yall can tell me, but I know the answer. Hint, it can be a little of both.


Thanks for your time, Gents, and please feel free to comment. Cheers, Ski.

[Tim Marlow]

Great subject for discussion. In my opinion it takes time to get competent, and talent to get exceptional. However, the biggest driver to improving is that you have to want to….….

In my opinion, the biggest mistakes most people make are, one, expect it to take a short period of time, and two, falling down the rabbit hole of the next big thing.

To address the first, I’m an experienced figure painter, and I would expect a simple WW2 1/35th figure to take me around two hours to complete to a standard of which I am happy. If I was inexperienced, or rusty, I would expect it to take longer. There is no getting away from it, painting figures takes time. There are short cuts, and techniques, you can use to minimise effort and maximise results, but it isn’t interior decorating where two quick coats gives you a nice flat even colour and you can move on. It needs a bit more thought and effort to generate realistic highlights and shadows. Anyone that thinks they can produce a decent figure in twenty minutes or so is going to be dissatisfied with the result.

To address the second, the best approach (in my opinion, though probably not in the mind of the marketing man) is take one manufacturers range and really learn how it works. In my painting “career” I started with humbrols, dabbled with oils, and finally moved on to acrylics. This happened over a period of about twenty five years. Been on acrylics for around fifteen years now and probably won’t move on again.

The reasons were as follows:
I got to dislike the smell of enamels when Humbrol changed the formula and found the ability to reactivate the paint layer a blessing and a curse…..they were also very hard on brushes.

Moved to oils and found them great to use, especially for blending, but the slow drying time impacted productivity (I mostly paint wargames armies these days). I still have a large box of them, they last forever, but don’t use them very often any more.

After a few years out of the hobby I found acrylic paint to be much more widespread and decided to give them a try. When I did I found the fast drying times of acrylics best suited my requirements. They are not great for dry brushing, which enamels and oils excel at, and need additives to blend properly, but apart from that I find their performance more than adequate for my needs. I use Vallejo acrylics in the main, but do use other ranges as compliments where necessary (gold metallics and decent coverage from an orange colour are examples).

The worst thing you can do, for both your bank balance and your self esteem, is to chase the next best shiny thing….different paint, brushes, or such like, will not improve your painting until you know what you actually need to get the results you want. Oh, and if you use acrylics, buy a wet palette and learn how to properly mix and thin your paint….it will transform your experience…..

[PaulinKendal]

Great topic, Steve. The usual suspects are turning up to respond...!

I've asked this question myself, but looking down the other end of the telescope - not asking why so few people seem interested in figure painting, but why so many people focus on vehicle models instead (especially military models)?

Whatever the reason for that, I'd suggest that that is the primary reason for figure painting being the cinderella subject it is, on here and elsewhere.

However, if you look at figure painting as a completely different hobby entirely, rather than as a sub-branch of plastic modelling, then the picture is much more rosy.

YouTube is stuffed with great tutorials from outstanding figure painters, every decent sized town (here in the UK) has a Warhammer shop that majors on figure painting, and dedicated sites like Planet Figure show there are plenty of us figure painting enthusiasts out there.

I'm a bit of a crafting generalist - I've done plastic models, paper models, needle felted models, sketching, photography - you name it.

But for me, figure painting just hits the spot. The fundamental simplicity of a figure, a rack of paints, a wet palette and a magnifier, along with a hifi and a cup of tea, is so relaxing and absorbing. The workflow is usually pretty seamless, so you can get properly into the moment (a moment that can last many hours, of course).

Did I say simplicity? As I look round my workroom I see racks of tools, a paint agitator, putties, fillers and glues, bottles of additives and cleaners, an airbrush and an extractor, drawers filled with scenic bits, and tons more. But the simple basic premise - take a figure and apply paint - remains.

For what it's worth, I think the emphasis on military modelling is just an accident of history. Before WW2, small boys and their dads were making flying and sailing models out of balsa and tissue paper. The end of the war coincided with the development of injection moulding techniques, and we were all immersed in the global catastrophe we'd just lived through, so using that technology to make military models was a commercial no-brainer. It's now an established market that is largely self-perpetuating.

My interest in figure painting is also accidental. Like so many people during lockdown, I was casting around for a home-based interest that would occupy as much of my time as possible. Painting a wargame army appealed, and once I'd started couldn't stop. The fact that painting figures is time-hungry was a feature, not a glitch.

And I must say that plentiful supportive advice from this forum, and especially from the gent above (thanks's again Tim Marlow ) ensured I could improve much more rapidly than would otherwise have been the case.

People like to slag off social media, but I'd say this forum is a spectacularly positive example of the good our e-connectedness can create - long may it continue!

[Scratchbuilder]

If I can answer your question in two ways...
As a retired truck driver who spent most of thirty years away from home and travelling all over Europe and what used to be the Eastern Bloc countries including Russia and a few trips by train to the Chinese border... Life in general could be comfortable (you make it so) and in life you had your bad days.
But the main point is this - you do not go into it as a job - you go into it because it is what you want to do, you start off small (local trips London - Glasgow) with the odd night away from home. And then as your confidence grows you look to travel further and further. On the way a few things get broken (mainly marriage) a few things get lost (family), But the bug bites and you want to do more and explore more...
Modelmaking - I started off modelmaking by destroying my Fathers pride and joy an Airfix DH88, bright red plastic and no paint. There it was sitting on the fireplace and I just had to 'fly' it around the room untill we crashed.... Then after a swift slap around the back of the head I was given a tube of cement and told to repair the damage - do you know how much plastic tube cememnt you can get into a 1/72 scale fuselage... And again you do not go into modelmaking - you go into it because you want to - On the next rip to what was then Woolworths, I found the bags of Airfix kits, and tins of Airfix paint which back then what was in the tin must have rotted a few brain cells, and I was smitten and came away with a Spitfire and Me109, and all put together and painted that afternoon... And so as my confidence grew I discovered the Airfix Magazine and what other modelmakers were doing and so I started to travel further into the model world, my weekly newspaper round paying for my hobby. But the adventure went on and on, I discovered through the magazine that I could convert to other variants using Balsa wood, clear dope to seal it, different grades of sandpaper and on and on. Other subjects were tried throughout my hobby life, ships, trains, tanks and figures, I joined societies IPMS, BMSS, MAFVA where I met other modellers and still expanding my horizons, travelling to shows and competitions where my skills were put before my peers to judge and award if my contribution qualified... I went on to write a few articles, write reviews.... And even when the job above got in the way I could still read away the hours of waiting for a load, unloading or loading or stuck on an industrial estate for a weekend if I could not get to a beach or tourist site.
Now I am in full flow as a modelmaker, I looked at adding figures to my models, but made the decision that the main subject was the model itself and that I do not want to distract the eye away from it. Has it taken time? Yes, it has taken 70 years to be where I am today from that first slap around the head. Has it taken talent? My talent has been developed over those years, is it unique, I think all modelmakers have this unique talent be it a railway layout, a model car, a figure, a tank etc. Sit down a group of people from all backgrounds and all ages and introduce them to a subject they can all recognise (Spitfire) and set them loose on one of the starter kits, then see the talent come to the fore. Some may only attempt this one build, while others will want to do more, and the questions will come and you had better have the answers...
Going back to my truck days, as I said you have got to want to do it, I have met some that took to it like a duck to water, and I have met a few that went all the way and were never seen again once they got back home, and the few that saw the open mouth of the cross Channel ferry, got out of the truck and walked away...
And so it is with modelmaking, some take to it like a duck to water, others try it and never again, and there are those that just do not want to be involved.....

[Steve Ski]

It was a pleasure to get up this morning and read these responses, and they are exactly what I had expected, well thought out and meaningful. I appreciate you three sharing your personal experiences, it's always great to hear the back stories of how we got to where we are today, and sometimes why. I'm sure there will be more later as time goes on. Thank you, Gentlemen.

figure painting being the cinderella subject it is

Paul, I like how you referred to it, as I can see that. As you all have pretty much said, it takes time to gain confidence, then progressive learning turns into experience, and then talent is developed. My daily go-to is Planetfigure.com, btw, for daily inspiration, kinda like my morning coffee jolt, so to speak. I'm always learning something from somebody over at PF.

The worst thing you can do, for both your bank balance and your self esteem, is to chase the next best shiny thing….different paint, brushes, or such like, will not improve your painting until you know what you actually need to get the results you want.

Chasing that shiny penny, of sorts, is a very realistic way of putting it, Tim. If there's a stick-to-it-iveness on the part of the learner those temptations will fade as experience is gained, excellent point.

and there are those that just do not want to be involved.....

Very true, Mike, either someone wants to or they don't. As we all agree, the desire must be present or it's a moot point.

Thanks for the input and responses, Gents. We won't be solving this riddle any time soon ourselves, but as long as others who may be interested know that we're here to lend a hand as best as we can, we might see an uptick in interest. It is a personal preference to be chosen or rejected, but as some of us already know, it's a real hootin ditty of a fun time trying to make figures walk.

Cheers, Ski.

[Ian M]

Yes.
I'm a man of few words. Lol.

[scottie3158]

I think it takes skill. Figures are a special subject and very difficult to get right. With my kit building I am reasonably happy and know that I am slowly improving. When I paint figures I am always disappointed with them. To my mind and I don't know what others think, but they are always the first thing the eye sees and can make or break a good kit.

[Neil Merryweather]

I love making and converting figures but painting them is, to me, just a necessary evil.
The more I do it the happier I am with the results, so there's no doubt that practice makes perfect (or at least, better).
But I very rarely buy a figure for the 'pleasure' of painting it.

[boatman]

WELL Steven i dont do figers but ships an planes are my models big ones to light up but to answer your question on time or talent well i think BOTH
Chrisb

[Peter Gillson]

Hi Guys

i'm one of the few on this forum who predominately sculpts and paints figures.

i think it was the golfer Seve Ballesteros who once answered a journalist who asked him about a 'lucky' shot with something along the lines of: "its funny but the more I practice the luckier I get". Same with painting - practice, practice, practice.

However, for practice to lead to improvement it has to involve more that just painting the figure; I think that as important as the actual painting is the willingness to look carefully at both the real thing (to know what the model should look like) and to look at your model to see where improvement is needed. I recall speaking to a Guernsey artist (Peter le Vasseur ; https://www.peterlevasseur.com/ ) who said that learning to 'see' was the most important aspect of painting.

when I say; 'look' I mean really look, look at all the details, colours, shades etc. For instance I am about to start work on painting a black horse - something I have never done before. So I started looking at photos of horse and found, to my surprise that they fall into two colour blacks. One is brown-black, the second id blie-black and for each the shades and higlights have either a brownish or blueish tint. Same with most things - colours tend to consist of more than one colour. Flesh tones have a very wide range of colours.

in addition there is the technical knowledge of the paint and which type suits your style. This is particularly where YouTube videos can be useful, to show what other people do which can help develop your own style.

the final aspect is time. There are no short cuts, a good paint job takes time, and somethings will be more difficult that others. for instance i find painting hands really difficult, and have never got very good results - I do like gloved hands!!!

And of course - you never stop learning; there is always room for improvement, particularly with my work!

peter

[Steve Ski]

Yes.
I'm a man of few words. Lol.

Lol, you did fine!

I think it takes skill. Figures are a special subject and very difficult to get right. With my kit building I am reasonably happy and know that I am slowly improving. When I paint figures I am always disappointed with them. To my mind and I don't know what others think, but they are always the first thing the eye sees and can make or break a good kit.

The eyes are always naturally drawn to any figure in a dio, at least for me, but don't worry if you feel they aren't tops yet, keep having fun working them.

I love making and converting figures but painting them is, to me, just a necessary evil.
The more I do it the happier I am with the results, so there's no doubt that practice makes perfect (or at least, better).
But I very rarely buy a figure for the 'pleasure' of painting it.

I've seen your work, Neil, you do mighty fine, Buddy! Unless the eyes go, we never retire the crushes, right?

WELL Steven i dont do figers but ships an planes are my models big ones to light up but to answer your question on time or talent well i think BOTH
Chrisb

Excellent, Chris, thanks for that input, and I agree.

There are no short cuts, a good paint job takes time,................

And of course - you never stop learning; there is always room for improvement,.................

Well said, Peter, all of it. And I agree completely, never stop learning. I also agree, looking and actually seeing, that's the key for me as well, the minute details.

[Tim Marlow]

I think it takes skill. Figures are a special subject and very difficult to get right. With my kit building I am reasonably happy and know that I am slowly improving. When I paint figures I am always disappointed with them. To my mind and I don't know what others think, but they are always the first thing the eye sees and can make or break a good kit.

The skills involved are artisanal and therefore can be learned and passed on Scottie. An example is Richard’s recent pigeon Pooh diorama. I know I could copy that and make a more than passable facsimile of it. I have the artisanal skills and techniques to hand to make things like that. However, what I don’t have, can’t learn, and never will acquire, is the creative vision to come up with something original like the pigeon pooh concept. That, to me, is the difference between skill and talent, right there. You can learn skills, but you are born with talent.

My skills were developed in three ways, mostly along the lines described by Peter G further down. Skill development boils down to this.

Observation:
You have this already, or you simply wouldn’t be able to super detail your creations like you do. Just apply that to figures and copy what you see. Look at the way shadows are made, look at textures, and look at colours in proper detail, for example.

Practice:
You have done this with your plastic and pewter work, more so than most
I would say. The skills you need to develop for figure painting really are not that different. Put the hours in and develop proper brush and paint control. Explore the various ways a paintbrush can be gripped, and try out using the edge and point, not just the conventional “cats tongue” approach. Sometimes holding the brush rigid and just moving the hand at the wrist can give you more control, for example. Don’t just do the same thing over and over, practice is as much about learning as it is about honing your existing skills. As an exercise, paint a simple figure using just half a dozen basic colours, none of which are pre mixed field grey or suchlike. I guarantee you will learn more that way that you will by buying every brush or paint on the market and reading every book ever written. It will also be a lot faster and cheaper

Push your boundaries:
Again, you didn’t start out using pewter sheet and etch to get the fantastic results you get these days, you added them in when you wanted to go further with your modelling. Once you get to a certain level with figures, try something different….mix your own colours, find out about “warm” and ”cool” colours, and use one range for shades and another for highlights….try out the various washes and inks on the market, they can add different dimensions to your finishes….etc.

Unfortunately, the one real hurdle you have to overcome is this. You have to want to do it. If you don’t, if it all seems a real chore and you’d much rather do something else, then do something else because then you will get more fun out of your bench hours. If you can drive yourself to get past the fear and first set backs, and really want to get better at figures, trust me, the fear will go away, you will get better, and you might even find you enjoy it :smiling:

Painting a good figure really isn’t that hard, but it takes time and application to both develop the skills and produce the end result. On the other hand, painting a truly great figure takes innate talent and a modicum of luck, and I can’t do it either :crying:

[PaulinKendal]

i think it was the golfer Seve Ballesteros who once answered a journalist who asked him about a 'lucky' shot with something along the lines of: "its funny but the more I practice the luckier I get."

I love that quote! It encapsulates the process of practising something until you discover you've become really good at it, without even noticing the improvement happening. When painting eyes starting out I'd sometimes find my shaking hand would, by sheer luck, place a tiny amount of paint in exactly the right place and I'd think "great! I don't have to restart the eye painting all over this time!". As I've practised more and more, the eye painting improves, as does my 'luck' with where the paint goes.

The skills involved are artisanal and therefore can be learned and passed on Scottie. An example is Richard’s recent pigeon Pooh diorama. I know I could copy that and make a more than passable facsimile of it. I have the artisanal skills and techniques to hand to make things like that. However, what I don’t have, can’t learn, and never will acquire, is the creative vision to come up with something original like the pigeon pooh concept. That, to me, is the difference between skill and talent, right there. You can learn skills, but you are born with talent.

You do yourself down, Tim - we all do. That sense that other people have real talent, while we only have skills and techniques is very commonplace in all walks of life. If you can do something with some facility, you tend to consider it no big deal (because to you it isn't). But the thing you can't do, but someone else can, looks like an amazing talent.

So Richard's undoubted creative vision is real talent to you (and ne, let me tell you), while your own, equally undoubted talent with a brush is merely artisanal. That's not so. To those who can't paint, your skill with a paintbrush is every bit as impressive and talented.

I say to youngsters starting out in working life, never forget that the simple things that they find straightforward to do, that others can't do, are real talents - don't take them for granted, don't underestimate their value.

I mean things like turning up on time, looking presentable, being friendly and approachable, not nicking stuff, doing what your employer asks. If you can do these things with relative ease, they seem of no consequence to you while, say, laying down flawless brickwork at lightning speed seems like a real talent. But if that amazing bricklaying goes with turning up late, trashtalking customers and being generally unpleasant, then your own steady bricklaying, coupled with all the right socials skills, will get you the job every time.

And Tim, let me tell you - you've got the job!:smiling5:

[scottie3158]

The skills involved are artisanal and therefore can be learned and passed on Scottie. An example is Richard’s recent pigeon Pooh diorama. I know I could copy that and make a more than passable facsimile of it. I have the artisanal skills and techniques to hand to make things like that. However, what I don’t have, can’t learn, and never will acquire, is the creative vision to come up with something original like the pigeon pooh concept. That, to me, is the difference between skill and talent, right there. You can learn skills, but you are born with talent.

My skills were developed in three ways, mostly along the lines described by Peter G further down. Skill development boils down to this.

Observation:
You have this already, or you simply wouldn’t be able to super detail your creations like you do. Just apply that to figures and copy what you see. Look at the way shadows are made, look at textures, and look at colours in proper detail, for example.

Practice:
You have done this with your plastic and pewter work, more so than most
I would say. The skills you need to develop for figure painting really are not that different. Put the hours in and develop proper brush and paint control. Explore the various ways a paintbrush can be gripped, and try out using the edge and point, not just the conventional “cats tongue” approach. Sometimes holding the brush rigid and just moving the hand at the wrist can give you more control, for example. Don’t just do the same thing over and over, practice is as much about learning as it is about honing your existing skills. As an exercise, paint a simple figure using just half a dozen basic colours, none of which are pre mixed field grey or suchlike. I guarantee you will learn more that way that you will by buying every brush or paint on the market and reading every book ever written. It will also be a lot faster and cheaper

Push your boundaries:
Again, you didn’t start out using pewter sheet and etch to get the fantastic results you get these days, you added them in when you wanted to go further with your modelling. Once you get to a certain level with figures, try something different….mix your own colours, find out about “warm” and ”cool” colours, and use one range for shades and another for highlights….try out the various washes and inks on the market, they can add different dimensions to your finishes….etc.

Unfortunately, the one real hurdle you have to overcome is this. You have to want to do it. If you don’t, if it all seems a real chore and you’d much rather do something else, then do something else because then you will get more fun out of your bench hours. If you can drive yourself to get past the fear and first set backs, and really want to get better at figures, trust me, the fear will go away, you will get better, and you might even find you enjoy it :smiling:

Painting a good figure really isn’t that hard, but it takes time and application to both develop the skills and produce the end result. On the other hand, painting a truly great figure takes innate talent and a modicum of luck, and I can’t do it either :crying:

Tim,
You are right in what you say, and I think the last point you make is the key. At the moment they are a necessary evil and I don't look forward to them but I will have to re think my attitude towards them. Thanks for the advice.

[Tim Marlow]

Tim,
You are right in what you say, and I think the last point you make is the key. At the moment they are a necessary evil and I don't look forward to them but I will have to re think my attitude towards them. Thanks for the advice.

No problem Scottie. If you ever need advice, just ask. If I can help, I will. Otherwise it’s just down to application. Specifically, applying the seat of your trousers to the chair :thumb2: