Does it take time or talent?

[Dave Ward]

It must take both! I've dabbled with figure painting, and I've never really felt 100% happy with any result - even though I've spent hours redoing, revising and retouching. I just think that I'm lacking that 'talent', whether it's technique, or artistic touch. I'll no doubt have another go at figure painting, but despite watching & reading tutorials, I don't seem to improve.....................
Dave

[Steve Ski]

It must take both! I've dabbled with figure painting, and I've never really felt 100% happy with any result - even though I've spent hours redoing, revising and retouching. I just think that I'm lacking that 'talent', whether it's technique, or artistic touch. I'll no doubt have another go at figure painting, but despite watching & reading tutorials, I don't seem to improve.....................
Dave

No worries, Dave, regardless of the results if you were having fun, that's what matters. I've had some cherry days working a figure till I'm blue in the face and walked away. After a few days I was back in the groove. Besides, this is a fun Sport, then run we Ruck Over, right?

Tim,
You are right in what you say, and I think the last point you make is the key. At the moment they are a necessary evil and I don't look forward to them but I will have to re think my attitude towards them. Thanks for the advice.

Scottie, I'll be posting something below you might find helpful, or not, but it's worth a look. If any of us can be an assist, that's what this is all about.

Sorry for the delayed response to this thread, Gents. I had to deal with hay today, and I'm smoked! It was only 4tons, but if you count picking it up from out of the field and hand loading the bails onto the truck and then stacking it in the barn, that makes 8tons, right? We did move them twice:anguished: The new farmer doesn't have a grappler yet, so it's all by hand from the ground, and that is no fun.

Great comments Gents.

[Steve Ski]

Hey Guys,

Just in case some of you were thinking of giving this a go, here’s a few articles on oils that I used to hone my skills over 10, maybe even 15yrs ago, or longer. The methods work today just as good as back then. Though I have refined my techniques over the years, the concept is the same.

I remember someone at a hobby shop way, way back when, suggested I try oils, but nobody told me how to use them, how they worked, or what to expect other than, you’re gonna love it. In the beginning it was all trial and error and the net wasn’t even a blip on the scope back then, mid 90’s.

Listed below are some article links from Missing-Lynx posted by Mark Bannerman. I owe Mark a ton of credit for posting these articles, they’re golden, and they’ll help you too, imho! And frankly, I never understood the hang-up with oils and why so many have taken to acrylics. They remind me too much of the old days of enamels and how blending was a joke, though somewhat possible. Something about constant layering just doesn’t jive with me, but that’s me.

So, if I were to suggest anything worth a good read before you ever wet a brush, it would be to study these methods and techniques Mark has laid out in these articles. It’s really not difficult, and if you apply yourself and don’t give up, you can break the learning curve and see great results quickly. That part is up to you.

If I was teaching a class in oils Mark would be getting royalties, so this is your curriculum. Once you’ve got the concept and have done some hands on, we can move on from there. What have you got to lose?? Nothin!

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles...es_figures.htm Main link, multiple article links

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbheads/mbheads.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbface/mbface.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbpart2/mbpart2.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mblarge.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mblarge2.htm

So, not really a dare, but encouragement to say, "Hey, why not." and see where it takes you. Please post your work and progress so we can see how you’re doing. And for sure, holler if you reach a snag or something isn’t understood, and I will personally see how I can assist, and if I'm not catching the PM's, there's a few fine Gents here who can assist as well, no doubt. This is, after all, all about “sniffin paint and gluin our fingers together”, right?

Cheers, Ski.

[scottie3158]

Hey Guys,

Just in case some of you were thinking of giving this a go, here’s a few articles on oils that I used to hone my skills over 10, maybe even 15yrs ago, or longer. The methods work today just as good as back then. Though I have refined my techniques over the years, the concept is the same.

I remember someone at a hobby shop way, way back when, suggested I try oils, but nobody told me how to use them, how they worked, or what to expect other than, you’re gonna love it. In the beginning it was all trial and error and the net wasn’t even a blip on the scope back then, mid 90’s.

Listed below are some article links from Missing-Lynx posted by Mark Bannerman. I owe Mark a ton of credit for posting these articles, they’re golden, and they’ll help you too, imho! And frankly, I never understood the hang-up with oils and why so many have taken to acrylics. They remind me too much of the old days of enamels and how blending was a joke, though somewhat possible. Something about constant layering just doesn’t jive with me, but that’s me.

So, if I were to suggest anything worth a good read before you ever wet a brush, it would be to study these methods and techniques Mark has laid out in these articles. It’s really not difficult, and if you apply yourself and don’t give up, you can break the learning curve and see great results quickly. That part is up to you.

If I was teaching a class in oils Mark would be getting royalties, so this is your curriculum. Once you’ve got the concept and have done some hands on, we can move on from there. What have you got to lose?? Nothin!

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles...es_figures.htm Main link, multiple article links

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbheads/mbheads.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbface/mbface.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mbpart2/mbpart2.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mblarge.htm

http://www.missing-lynx.com/articles/figures/mblarge2.htm

So, not really a dare, but encouragement to say, "Hey, why not." and see where it takes you. Please post your work and progress so we can see how you’re doing. And for sure, holler if you reach a snag or something isn’t understood, and I will personally see how I can assist, and if I'm not catching the PM's, there's a few fine Gents here who can assist as well, no doubt. This is, after all, all about “sniffin paint and gluin our fingers together”, right?

Cheers, Ski.

Cheers I will have a look.

[PaulinKendal]

Hi Steve, thanks for those links to the Bannerman content.

I've thought about switching to oils for a while now. I'm not ready to do that yet, as I am still learning and enjoying using acrylics, and find it hard to accept that my investment in acrylic paints, and all the stuff that goes with them, would be largely redundant. (Worth saying that the skills I've developed in using acrylics would certainly not become redundant!)

I've had a read through some of those Bannerman tutorials and, excellent as they are, can I say they're rather showing their age? I think if he was trying to impart the same knowledge today he'd probably use something like YouTube. That's certainly where I've learned most of my acrylic painting techniques.

I've just watched an excellent video on miniature painting with oils by Marco Frisoni, and I wondered what you would make of it - would you mind if I posted a link to it here on this thread?

[wotan]

As more of a traditional artist/painter I tend to spend much of my time working in 2 dimensions. However I do enjoy sculpting and painting figures in small scale and have learned a lot about techniques along the way. I think there are a number of issues that make a successful paint job and they can all be learned (as Tim pointed out) by anyone who has the interest to persist at it. I also teach figure drawing and portraiture, two skills that most people would consider "hard", however I have seen many regular folks become very competent artists by a little technique and a lot of perseverance. Here are some areas that I would suggest that you concentrate on

1. Accuracy of paint application. Nothing detracts from the appearance of painted figures more than colours that "go outside the lines". If you are painting belts or strapping etc etc, be sure to make your lines straight, and with no paint spreading over the surrounding features. Some decent brushes will help to achieve this.

2. Learn a few basics about colour theory and the way in which your chosen paints mix. Don't just shade with black, look at how colours can be made more interesting by mixing their complementary colours into shadows. Also learn to identify warm and cool colours and how they work together. Colours have three properties, VALUE, CHROMA, and HUE. Hue is the most obvious being simply is it red, blue or green etc. Value is the darkness or lightness of a colour, in other words what would it look like if you photographed it in black and white only. Finally Chroma is the intensity of the colour, in other words is it a brilliant glaring colour or is it a greyed down version of the colour.

3. Finally look and look again at real people to see how many colours, nuances and lighting variations you can see. Remember the effect of scale. Most models are anything from 1/72 to 1/6 the size of real people so you will be obliged to exaggerate colours and shadows in a scale figure in order to give it any realism.

If you choose to use Acrylic, acrylic gouache, Gouache, Enamels, Oils or Alkyd Oils really doesn't matter. I use them all and, not my efforts, but I have seen great results with all of them. Having said that I would suggest you start with acrylics since they dry fast, are not expensive, and can be found anywhere (check out your local art stores as well as model suppliers). Finally make sure you find a good MATTE varnish (I suggest artist's matte spray varnish) since nothing looks more false on a figure model than shiny cloth trousers or jackets.

John

[Tim Marlow]

As more of a traditional artist/painter I tend to spend much of my time working in 2 dimensions. However I do enjoy sculpting and painting figures in small scale and have learned a lot about techniques along the way. I think there are a number of issues that make a successful paint job and they can all be learned (as Tim pointed out) by anyone who has the interest to persist at it. I also teach figure drawing and portraiture, two skills that most people would consider "hard", however I have seen many regular folks become very competent artists by a little technique and a lot of perseverance. Here are some areas that I would suggest that you concentrate on

1. Accuracy of paint application. Nothing detracts from the appearance of painted figures more than colours that "go outside the lines". If you are painting belts or strapping etc etc, be sure to make your lines straight, and with no paint spreading over the surrounding features. Some decent brushes will help to achieve this.

2. Learn a few basics about colour theory and the way in which your chosen paints mix. Don't just shade with black, look at how colours can be made more interesting by mixing their complementary colours into shadows. Also learn to identify warm and cool colours and how they work together. Colours have three properties, VALUE, CHROMA, and HUE. Hue is the most obvious being simply is it red, blue or green etc. Value is the darkness or lightness of a colour, in other words what would it look like if you photographed it in black and white only. Finally Chroma is the intensity of the colour, in other words is it a brilliant glaring colour or is it a greyed down version of the colour.

3. Finally look and look again at real people to see how many colours, nuances and lighting variations you can see. Remember the effect of scale. Most models are anything from 1/72 to 1/6 the size of real people so you will be obliged to exaggerate colours and shadows in a scale figure in order to give it any realism.

If you choose to use Acrylic, acrylic gouache, Gouache, Enamels, Oils or Alkyd Oils really doesn't matter. I use them all and, not my efforts, but I have seen great results with all of them. Having said that I would suggest you start with acrylics since they dry fast, are not expensive, and can be found anywhere (check out your local art stores as well as model suppliers). Finally make sure you find a good MATTE varnish (I suggest artist's matte spray varnish) since nothing looks more false on a figure model than shiny cloth trousers or jackets.

John

Regarding point one John, the other part is that there is no rule saying you can’t go back over a colour to tidy up a line…I do it all the time. Just use the colour you’ve gone over to cut the line back to size. That is one place where acrylics score over everything else. They dry very quickly , and when they are dry they are dry so there is no bleed through of the underlying colour. A wet palette helps as well, because you usually still have some of the original colour available for the touch in.

[Steve Ski]

Cheers I will have a look.

Let us know what you think, Scottie.

Hi Steve, thanks for those links to the Bannerman content.

I've thought about switching to oils for a while now. I'm not ready to do that yet, as I am still learning and enjoying using acrylics, and find it hard to accept that my investment in acrylic paints, and all the stuff that goes with them, would be largely redundant. (Worth saying that the skills I've developed in using acrylics would certainly not become redundant!)

I've had a read through some of those Bannerman tutorials and, excellent as they are, can I say they're rather showing their age? I think if he was trying to impart the same knowledge today he'd probably use something like YouTube. That's certainly where I've learned most of my acrylic painting techniques.

I've just watched an excellent video on miniature painting with oils by Marco Frisoni, and I wondered what you would make of it - would you mind if I posted a link to it here on this thread?

No worries, Paul, this is for all of us, so please post any helpful links whether acrylic or oils. The key here is the info gets passed along to others. Ya, those articles are pretty dated, but the intel is still useful for someone starting out to get the basic jist of the process.

IMHO, keep at the acrylics and slowly work in the oils. You'll be able to parse the two whenever you need to. If you've learned both medium sets it should be no issue, but a plus. Your acrylic inventory would never become redundant, you'll always be using them and the beauty of oils, which I neglected to mention earlier, is a tube can last almost a life time, almost. Once you've got a decent basic set of colors you can make whatever tone is required on your palette.

As more of a traditional artist/painter I tend to spend much of my time working in 2 dimensions. However I do enjoy sculpting and painting figures in small scale and have learned a lot about techniques along the way. I think there are a number of issues that make a successful paint job and they can all be learned (as Tim pointed out) by anyone who has the interest to persist at it. I also teach figure drawing and portraiture, two skills that most people would consider "hard", however I have seen many regular folks become very competent artists by a little technique and a lot of perseverance. Here are some areas that I would suggest that you concentrate on

1. Accuracy of paint application. Nothing detracts from the appearance of painted figures more than colours that "go outside the lines". If you are painting belts or strapping etc etc, be sure to make your lines straight, and with no paint spreading over the surrounding features. Some decent brushes will help to achieve this.

2. Learn a few basics about colour theory and the way in which your chosen paints mix. Don't just shade with black, look at how colours can be made more interesting by mixing their complementary colours into shadows. Also learn to identify warm and cool colours and how they work together. Colours have three properties, VALUE, CHROMA, and HUE. Hue is the most obvious being simply is it red, blue or green etc. Value is the darkness or lightness of a colour, in other words what would it look like if you photographed it in black and white only. Finally Chroma is the intensity of the colour, in other words is it a brilliant glaring colour or is it a greyed down version of the colour.

3. Finally look and look again at real people to see how many colours, nuances and lighting variations you can see. Remember the effect of scale. Most models are anything from 1/72 to 1/6 the size of real people so you will be obliged to exaggerate colours and shadows in a scale figure in order to give it any realism.

If you choose to use Acrylic, acrylic gouache, Gouache, Enamels, Oils or Alkyd Oils really doesn't matter. I use them all and, not my efforts, but I have seen great results with all of them. Having said that I would suggest you start with acrylics since they dry fast, are not expensive, and can be found anywhere (check out your local art stores as well as model suppliers). Finally make sure you find a good MATTE varnish (I suggest artist's matte spray varnish) since nothing looks more false on a figure model than shiny cloth trousers or jackets.

John

Well said, John. Painting figures takes time, practice, and a willingness to learn, excellent points. Your comments are spot on, imho.

Not having your experience or background I would respectfully disagree on one point, however, that everyone should start with acrylics. I've never considered the drying time of oils to be an issue personally, and have always expected it, and worked with it. It's the nature of the beast. It should not be a limiting factor for anyone. If you understand the properties of each medium up front you will learn to work with each limitation from the start, acrylics or oils. The frustrations with each medium are equally present and we've heard issues arising from both. Presenting the issues of both leaves it open to whomever it is to make the decision which medium they will choose. Naturally they will learn what is involved in the one they've chosen and carry on from there.

I by far do not have the experience you do,

On a side note, I used to do pencil work myself long ago, I'd love to see some of your work.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

I'll get started and add some links I've found helpful in refining my techniques personally. This is all about oils, so be aware of that.

Daria Callie has a great set of tutorials on oils that I've had great results from personally.

How to paint an eye.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyG...XjON9ZS5DaqMOQ Her main page.

I've scoured YT for other oilers and have found some pretty impressive talent to learn from, so there are a lot of helpful vids to work with. Remember, I'm not trying to recruit an oiler army, it's just my personal preference.

Below is a test run I did after studying this pretty little lady's tutorials in oils. It's very basic, but after following her process I was more than impressed at how quickly I got results. She teaches canvas work, but I knew I could use this on any figure, it's the same concept.



This was the result of working with her process on one of the Arnhem figures. This was by far one of the most realistic faces I have painted up to that time and I'm still pushing for more realism. Not quite there, not by a long shot, but I'm liking what I'm seeing.



Oh, and before I forget, as I did earlier, lol, learning to paint figures is best learned on Large Scale figures. 1/35th scale will only get you so far for really learning in depth, so keep that in mind if you are seriously wanting to get a good handle on this. Using a cheap bust or even 1/16th-120mm or 200mm heads will produce faster results because you will see your mistakes right up front, quickly, and you will address them immediately and learn from them. Keep it simple in the beginning and go large, it will be more enjoyable and you'll be less likely to get discouraged and want to give up. This applies to acrylics just as well as oils.

Lastly, a point to be made in regards to which medium you chose. I believe we've all seen how incredibly well some artists have been able to work acrylics to such realism that you'd be hard pressed to top the results with anything else, even in oils. But we've also seen faces done with oils that are so naturally realistic that they could be judged the same. It all comes down to personal preference and how far you want to take this, and honestly, the sky is the limit.

And if any of the other figure painters have any good links in either preferred medium, please post them for reference.

[wotan]

Steve

Your figures look very nice, and I must say that I paint almost exclusively in oils when I am in my studio. For outdoor stuff (plein air) I use gouache since it is more convenient to transport. For figures I use Acrylic as a base then use oils over the top. Incidentally you might want to try ALKYD OILS, since they have all the properties of regular oils but dry in a few hours, when thinned with white spirit etc.

Here's a selection of my 2D works.


John

[wotan]

And here is a few 3D models.



John

[scottie3158]

And here is a few 3D models.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n1230248[/ATTACH]

John

John,

I have said it before but you are a very talented man.

[Steve Ski]

Steve

Your figures look very nice, and I must say that I paint almost exclusively in oils when I am in my studio. For outdoor stuff (plein air) I use gouache since it is more convenient to transport. For figures I use Acrylic as a base then use oils over the top. Incidentally you might want to try ALKYD OILS, since they have all the properties of regular oils but dry in a few hours, when thinned with white spirit etc.

Here's a selection of my 2D works.

[ATTACH]515618[/ATTACH]
John

Wow, those a pretty dang awesome, John. I especially like the pencil work. My mother was an oil artist and taught art classes, but only passed on the pencil aspect to me. She had hung up her brushes by the time I came along, lol, being the youngest of six. I do have her original oil paint box from her college days, keeping that in the family. So, here's my brain squeeze, John, I could never transfer color to paper or canvas, and I'm sure you've heard of us. It's that mental hang-up I've never been able to shake, and I've tried. So, since 3D is not a mental issue, I enjoy it as much as I can.

Excellent figure work too, btw, and good to see another oiler, we're becoming fewer and farther between. Your work exemplifies the artistic side of this hobby that transfers to other platforms with ease. Very well rounded I'd say.

P.S. I have not tried Alkyd yet, just recently heard about them actually.

[PaulinKendal]

Ok, thanks Steve, here the video I mentioned. This is by Marco Frisoni. I think he's a trained fine artist, judging by his language in this and other videos of his. (Talking of language, if his flamboyant - and fabulous - Italian inflected English is a little difficult to understand initially, stick with it - he's fully worth the effort). Marco certainly suggests that, far from being slow, painting in oils can actually be very quick indeed. I'd be interested in opinions on this from those of you already using oils.

The truth about oil paints on miniatures

[Tim Marlow]

Interesting points here Steve, however one thing I do disagree with is that you need to learn on larger scale figures. That is only true if you want to be a figure painter per se. To get effective results from 1/35 and smaller scales you need different techniques to those used on larger scale busts, so you cant learn the required techniques by painting them. You need to know what detail can be omitted and what is essential. You still need to know how to shade in the round and depict folds in clothes etc, but some texture techniques and detail work is simply not required.

A pet hate of mine is wood graining. In small scale models wood grain simply isn’t visible unless it is something extreme like zebra wood, and quickly approaches a cartoonish aspect if painted in.

Another issue I have is with over detailed eyes in smaller scales. On a 200mm bust putting in sclera, pupils, irises, catchlights etc is necessary, but trying to do that on a 1/35 figure is a recipe for madness. All too often the figure ends up looking pop eyed and toy like. Better to get the shape of the eyeball correct and put in a suggestion of the iris.

A very useful exercise is to go around one of the great galleries and really look close up at the way the masters paint things like clothing and armour. Look at them from a distance, and then close up. The economy of effort is very revealing. They only put in what is required to get the effect they need.

A summary through my early morning meanderings here is this, different scales and modelling problems need different approaches! If you are building a dio where a dozen smaller scaled figures are being used as a supporting cast to a multi element scene, full shading and detail work using oil blend techniques over many weeks of work is probably not an effective use of your limited hobby time. On the other hand, if you are building a vignette of just one or two figures that are the sole focus of the piece, then the more detail you can get in the more interesting it will be to look at.

[Neil Merryweather]

A very useful exercise is to go around one of the great galleries and really look close up at the way the masters paint things like clothing and armour. Look at them from a distance, and then close up. The economy of effort is very revealing. They only put in what is required to get the effect they need.

Great point Tim

A summary through my early morning meanderings here is this, different scales and modelling problems need different approaches! If you are building a dio where a dozen smaller scaled figures are being used as a supporting cast to a multi element scene, full shading and detail work using oil blend techniques over many weeks of work is probably not an effective use of your limited hobby time. On the other hand, if you are building a vignette of just one or two figures that are the sole focus of the piece, then the more detail you can get in the more interesting it will be to look at.

I agree to an extent. When I eventually assembled and displayed my French Fusiliers diorama I felt like I had wasted a lot of effort with it because the detail was overshadowed by the whole. But then again, I had enjoyed the process. So therefore it was an effective use of my hobby time. But I'm quite sure that if I had had my work hat on, and especially supervising rather than doing the work myself, I would definitely have been urging restraint on the detail and more efficiency!
I think the answer is, you do whatever you enjoy doing