Does it take time or talent?

[Gavalaar1980]

Hey Gavin, your post made me go back and look at your figure work, and it is genuinely very good indeed (no platitudes here!) I'm not in the least surprised that non figure painters are amazed by your work - what we all do as figure painters is indeed amazing, and you're no exception in that.

But it would be silly to suggest there's no room for improvement. If you've got better in the past (and you certainly have) there's no earthly reason to think you can't improve further, going forward.

For myself, I know there's room for improvement with my own painting. I never finish a model and think "Ah, perfect!", and I bet you no other figure painters on here, however good they are, ever do that either!

Accepting that there's room for improvement is accepting that you're getting better, and that's a great thing. To be honest, if I wasn't improving I'm not sure I wouldn't change to something else - the process of learning how to do stuff better and better is just so addictive. If I'm not learning (i.e. not improving) then what's the point?

The question of talent versus practice is a vexed one. The more I paint, the less I think talent matters. The one talent I value over any other is perseverance - you simply have to put the practice in! And perseverance ensures we continue to practise, even when the improvements aren't readily discernible - we all plateau from time to time.

At the very top level there is a certain creative vision that might be an inherent talent and not actually learnable. But I'm not sure even about that. Perhaps, as you paint and paint and paint, as the ability to wield a brush expertly becomes intuitive, that creates space for creativity to flourish. (I'm not at that level yet, but I'll let you know if I ever get there!)


I wonder why you don't watch tutorials? There is absolutely no substitute for practice, and watching tutorials can sometimes take over from the actual hands-on practice. But there are some genius painters out there generating fantastic, instructional content, that could radically improve your painting. They've certainly helped me.

I'm a big believer in shamelessly copying others to generate your own style. It sounds counter-intuitive, I know, but I think copying others helps us master the motor skills and techniques we need to be able to go our own way.


This is spot on! The way this entirely frivolous thing we do can take over every waking hour is quite remarkable - it's a bit bonkers, but it's just so great!

Thank you for the reply Paul. You've made some excellent points here. I suppose we could all find a new more complex figure to challenge us than the last, and yeah, there is no such thing as total perfect satisfaction with the end result, it's why we do what we do.

As for not watching tutorials I guess I've just not really given them a chance, I agree that YouTube has got a plethora of useful tips about virtually everything. Maybe I could start my own channel and pass on some of my own tips.....

Thanks for the compliments and feedback. Likewise I have only got the highest praise for your own excellent work (and everyone else's on here).

Regards,


Gavin.

[Tim Marlow]

Hi Gavin. One of the most useful courses I was ever sent on by work was how to learn, and by extension, how to teach. On it I learned that there are four styles of learning, and finding and knowing yours is the best way to get the most from your learning experience. All are valid ways to learn, but some ways will enable you to absorb information more quickly than others. They are also not mutually exclusive and you will get something from them all at one time or another. Your personal learning style will be made up of some of them all, and will be different from the next person, but will be more biased towards some than others. The styles are made up as follows for those that are not aware.

”Visual”. This is learning from diagrams and explanatory photos. This one is my main go to…when information is imparted to me in this format I find I can very quickly assimilate it. Some “how to“ books fall into this sphere (the painting war series are good examples), but not all.

“Auditory”. This is listening to information and absorbing it that way. This is absolutely not mine, because I easily fall asleep in a lecture environment :flushed: . Most instructional videos fall into this category, which is probably why I don’t watch many. Those of us that get the most from videos will be those who have auditory as their dominant learning trait.

“Reading/writing”. This is absorbing knowledge from written text and taking notes. Also a good way for me, but I learn faster from a more visual format. Traditional “how to“ books can be part of this sphere, but they would be those with dense text and finished article pictures. They would be light on step by step illustrations.

“Kinesthetic”. This is learning by doing. I suspect this is your “go to”, from what you’ve written. I also have strains of this one in my learning “style”. Basically in this sphere you learn by trial and error and experimentation, knowing what you want to achieve and solving the problems to enable you to get those results. In effect, those with this trait are improving their skills by actually doing something. These are the true innovators, because they are the only ones not just copying what has gone before but solving problems from afresh. This means they can come up with new and more efficient ways to perform old tasks. However, they can take much longer to get to where they want to be and can sometimes spend time and energy reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

Watch tutorials by all means, but in your case you might get more from them if you don’t use them as a set of instructions to be slavishly followed, but just use them as pointers to push you out of your comfort zone and to try a different approach……

[David Lovell]

Personally time is something we all have wether it be the odd hour or lucky enough to be in the now I'm retired and my chores are done time is my own ,talent is a given thing something we all aspire to ,there are many naturally talented I'll use the word hobbyists out there who's work is just that bit more special were all talented to some degree/level but from there we strive to improve and i feel this is the problem too many fall by the wayside because they see their limits as failure always comparing against thoes at the top this isn't a talent contest its a hobby for christs sake not a look how good I am parade ,I'm quite happy with my lot all I can do is try and make the next one better than my last effort wich unfortunately wasn't as good as my last effort but if I learnt from it and most importantly ,enjoyed the small hicup/set back what the heck ,I would never be so rude as to point out this or that on anybodies work that person has done their best wich they should be more than proud of there's nothing wrong with trying to improve your work but also understand there will always be what you conceive to be better/superior to yours but rather than put your self down accept their talent because that's what it is be inspired by it to just do what you do just enjoy doing it please.

[rtfoe]

So much to read and learn and so many good comments that I am finding it very hard to put a word in Steven, great blog. Time or Talent...I think its both and a little more which is knowledge and understanding one's ability.

I found out in art school that I was leaning more towards water color work as it suited the marker tecniques used in commercial art visuals and storyboards. Although I dabbled with Oils and Acrylics, I preferred the minimalistic approach of dots and strokes, high contrast and lighting effects on still life subjects. I'll get back to why I mention this later. As it was, my hobby of modelling presides my time at art school including airbrushing before I put it on paper or art piece so discovery and application of color to my builds were very experimental to say the least, and is still is today.

Now where I come from in the early days we were exposed to only enamel paint such as Airfix, Revell and Humbrol. Tamiya acrylics or kits didn't even feature yet, so I had to adapt to this medium and its limitations with base, dark washes and dry brushing highlights to figure painting though it suited very well to armoured vehicles and built up areas in a diorama.

The black and white modelling magazines of the time introduced oils to figure painting but didn't offer much about how it was done visually...I envy the generation now with their Youtube videos. So we applied the oils the same way as we painted enamels. Having painted in oils on canvas in art school where you basically blended by rubbing your paint brush over two hues, I applied that technique and got some okay results. Using Siccative did speed up the drying process but too much cracked the paint. I found that oils with turpentine also worked well for dirty washes and streaks for armour. I wasn't getting the hang of oil paint application to figures not knowing applying little was better and painted as usual which often built up in thick layers and attracted dust and floating flock as it dried.

Being young and impatient didn't help either as I was into quantity building with dioramas that had many figures in the composition and wondered how I survived and got some okay results to my builds. This is where the water color thingy comes in. I must have been daft not to try the artist acrylics available to me. Perhaps the rubbery effect it had when dry didn't feel right then came acrylics like Vallejo that somehow had a different finish. I was sceptical at first but realised I could paint with it in high contrast in watercolor strokes, it was quicker and overpaint highlights like oils but in thinner layers in seconds. Youtube of course showed how it was done by many figure painters and I have seen up close of Calvin Tan's work as he has explained to me. It worked for my 1/35 figures and smaller but I am no way as good as the figure painters I recently saw at the Penang show. I am still learning and this is where ability comes in. My painting is slowly getting more detailed as my dios get smaller.

Another thing we take for granted is we assume everyone knows their colors and how to mix paints to their desired hue or blend from darker to lighter or visa versa. I found that many don't and prefer to purchase the exact shade fearing they won't be able to come up with the right mix. The other is light source and reflections like flesh tones turning to blue tones on the opposite side. To be able to see and do this, does it fall under the category of talent? There are new young builders that create amazingly professional looking stuff on their first try and there are those who don't know that mixing blue and yellow will get green and you can get hundreds of shades of it just by varying the percentage of the mix boggles me. If shown persistently I guess it can be learnt.

Important thing is enjoy what you have accomplished for now and get on to the next.

Cheers,
Wabble

[boatman]

Personally time is something we all have wether it be the odd hour or lucky enough to be in the now I'm retired and my chores are done time is my own ,talent is a given thing something we all aspire to ,there are many naturally talented I'll use the word hobbyists out there who's work is just that bit more special were all talented to some degree/level but from there we strive to improve and i feel this is the problem too many fall by the wayside because they see their limits as failure always comparing against thoes at the top this isn't a talent contest its a hobby for christs sake not a look how good I am parade ,I'm quite happy with my lot all I can do is try and make the next one better than my last effort wich unfortunately wasn't as good as my last effort but if I learnt from it and most importantly ,enjoyed the small hicup/set back what the heck ,I would never be so rude as to point out this or that on anybodies work that person has done their best wich they should be more than proud of there's nothing wrong with trying to improve your work but also understand there will always be what you conceive to be better/superior to yours but rather than put your self down accept their talent because that's what it is be inspired by it to just do what you do just enjoy doing it please.

HI Dave all what you have written in your post here is very true an thats how i think as to me i like to do as much an get as much working on my models as possible an i enjoy it an im happy as i can be but their is always someone doin a better model than me but im not worried as im just pleased that them hobbyist have done a better model than me so it gives me something to aspire to but im not goin to be in a compertion with them i just model how im happy with nuff said on the subject as far as im concerned
chrisb

[Steve Ski]

Like yourself I am 100 percent self taught. Never watched a single tutorial.

Howdy, Gavin, great points you brought up.

Minor correction though, I was taught by a friend how to paint military miniatures from the beginning, but I have no traditional oil paint or art training or study, color theory, etc. The only classes that could possibly qualify for any "training" would be one art class in 10th grade HS, and that was pencil drawing. I fight color tones all the time and that color wheel pegged to my book shelf railing is pretty much there just for looks. I very rarely if ever refer to it, HA! T'sall good, I'm in for a good color tone fight every now and again.:anguished:

This Sport is all about having fun and enjoying the process, otherwise we'd be mowing the lawn or trimming bushes, right? You've got the basics down very well and just need to keep expanding on what you've learned already, but may I suggest, I would definitely get into some learning from others. All of us stand on the shoulders of the Greats, regardless if it's cars, AC, tanks, ships, or figures. You're going to take some serious leaps forward if you honestly take the time to check out how some go about their craft. If you're happy with how things are going, you're good, but for inspiration I'd take a close look at a few of these pages from Putty&Paint and Planetfgure to see just how far you can take it, if you wanted to. Remember, you'll only be as good as you think you can be, then set about doing the work.

https://www.puttyandpaint.com/projects/top-projects Pay close attention to the clock when viewing this page, time will go by so fast you'll miss your bed time like I did the other night, HA!
https://www.planetfigure.com/forums/...ed-figures.50/ I learn from these guys and gals on a daily basis. You could get an equivalent of a 4yr degree by studying this work.

Watch tutorials by all means, but in your case you might get more from them if you don’t use them as a set of instructions to be slavishly followed, but just use them as pointers to push you out of your comfort zone and to try a different approach……

Tim brings up an excellent point, take what you can use and toss the rest. When you're at the stage you are right now, you won't be needing the bottom down basics, but a refinement of your techniques and skills. Eventually, after you watch enough vids and read enough articles, you'll begin to identify techniques and processes just by looking at someone's work. It's that time invested thing, it becomes second nature.

i feel this is the problem too many fall by the wayside because they see their limits as failure always comparing against thoes at the top this isn't a talent contest its a hobby for christs sake not a look how good I am parade

Spot on David. Who cares if someone does or doesn't like what I or anybody else does? This is not a job, it's a hobby, spot on! I refer back to one of my dad's favorite sayings, "It's none of your business what you think of me anyway!" Encouraging others and giving a gentle nudge in the right direction with constructive criticism, "if asked", is a safe way to approach it.

Important thing is enjoy what you have accomplished for now and get on to the next.

Awesome points, Richard, all of them. Having a seat next to Calvin while he paints must have been a real hoot, excellent! You described me in there very well, color clueless, except I do know how to mix enough oils to get the tone I want. :surprised: Yes, this is all about how far we want to take this Sport. Do we want to push it to the limit or hang loose and go with the flow? Regardless of where we are and where we might want to go, the fun of it, the journey, is to me, the prize. You said it, "enjoy"!

im not goin to be in a compertion with them i just model how im happy with nuff said on the subject as far as im concerned

Excellent, Chris. A common theme I'm seeing, and I'm in total agreement with, btw, is not trying to keep up with the Jones'. Personally, I see some of the work out there and many times I'm in need of a winch to reel my jaw back into socket. It's crazy, but I love it, and that gives me inspiration to improve and learn to manipulate those brushes; tweak em like a killer guitar player cranks his strings. I know I'll never be as good as some of those painters, but who cares? I’m never in competition to beat anybody and we shouldn’t be, it’s a kill-joy, imho. Once again, for me, the journey is the prize.


P.S. All in jest here, Gents. Just a Yank’s curiosity, but I thought all you Brits were prim and proper, but your punctuation is lacking in some cases. :surprised: I would have had a ruler across the knuckles if ever I tried to pass off a “run-on” sentence, HA! What gives?

[Tworrs]

I thought all you Brits were prim and proper,

And that was your first mistake Ski

[boatman]

WELL i know im a bit late in my answer to Paulin kendals qeustion an here it is


I've asked this question myself, but looking down the other end of the telescope - not asking why so few people seem interested in figure painting, but why so many people focus on vehicle models instead (especially military models)?

Whatever the reason for that, I'd suggest that that is the primary reason for figure painting being the cinderella subject it is, on here and elsewhere.

WELL Paul for a start id be rubbish as a figuer painter an get the shakes so no way could i do people faces like all you figure painters who are very skilled an have a very steady hand at your chiose of modeling an also i see peoples faces every day an yes they are all different so yes a great veriaty but i do military ships an plane because well i will never get a chance to see a real HMS TIGER again or a F14 TOMCAT as they have all been retired or srapped an i like to make them work an light them up but cant do this with a figure can i just love the machines an ships section all my life an i just think that applies to the mojority of modelers an to the fact its something we can never own in real life well thats my take on your question but i can own my own figure face but not that id want to paint a model of it bad enough as it is so jen tells me lol but your question was very valid an i hope ive got this right an not got the wrong end of the stick here
ATB TO YOU SIR
Chrisb

[PaulinKendal]

Thanks for the considered response, Chris. Perhaps it's just something that either side will never fully 'get' - if you're immersed in something it's hard to understand why others are not similarly enthusiastic, and if you're not interested in something it can be hard to see what the attraction is.

But variety is the spice of life, so long may it continue!

[PaulinKendal]

P.S. All in jest here, Gents. Just a Yank’s curiosity, but I thought all you Brits were prim and proper, but your punctuation is lacking in some cases. :surprised: I would have had a ruler across the knuckles if ever I tried to pass off a “run-on” sentence, HA! What gives?

What gives? Americans and British are two peoples divided by a common language, Steve, so we all understand that language is fluid and rules are made to be broken (and that fannies are very different things on either side of the Pond!)

Whether a forum contributor uses British English or American English, whether they abide by all the 'rules' of grammar and punctuation or not, and whether they speak with a cut-glass traditional BBC accent or the wonderfully dramatic tones of the aforementioned Marco Frisoni matters not a jot to us all. So long as we understand each other, that's all that matters.

[boatman]

What gives? Americans and British are two peoples divided by a common language, Steve, so we all understand that language is fluid and rules are made to be broken (and that fannies are very different things on either side of the Pond!)

Whether a forum contributor uses British English or American English, whether they abide by all the 'rules' of grammar and punctuation or not, and whether they speak with a cut-glass traditional BBC accent or the wonderfully dramatic tones of the aforementioned Marco Frisoni matters not a jot to us all. So long as we understand each other, that's all that matters.

WELL Steve i know you are just jokein but Paul has laid out very well what what with this grammar prob is as when i was at school 55 yrs ago we wernt taught all this fancy grammer an there 60 pupils in my class alone so we just were taught the basic english an had to muddle through in later life hope you understand LOL :rolling::smiling::smiling::smiling:
ATB to you Sir
Chrisb

[David Lovell]

What gives? Americans and British are two peoples divided by a common language, Steve, so we all understand that language is fluid and rules are made to be broken (and that fannies are very different things on either side of the Pond!)

Whether a forum contributor uses British English or American English, whether they abide by all the 'rules' of grammar and punctuation or not, and whether they speak with a cut-glass traditional BBC accent or the wonderfully dramatic tones of the aforementioned Marco Frisoni matters not a jot to us all. So long as we understand each other, that's all that matters.

WELL Steve i know you are just jokein but Paul has laid out very well what what with this grammar prob is as when i was at school 55 yrs ago we wernt taught all this fancy grammer an there 60 pupils in my class alone so we just were taught the basic english an had to muddle through in later life hope you understand LOL :rolling::smiling::smiling::smiling:
ATB to you Sir
Chrisb

Is he havin a giraffe?and no I'm baint a cocknee ize cummin frum Dorzet

[Tim Marlow]

Bugger ar! Oi be vrum Wiltshire ‘n all.

[boatman]

Well Tim you ought to hear the terrible broad norfolk SLANG
speak what the ole boys talked like in the 1940 an 1950's AR YOH BOYS KEEP ON A TROSHIN LOL an a
heya gorra a light boy by the singin postman LOL
Chrisb

[Steve Ski]

Oh boy, yes, Garry, I recon I shoulda kept my mouth shut, HA! Yall are good humored, I just thought I'd throw in a bone to chew on.:smiling5::smiling6::fearful: Yes, we are separated by a common language. In Oxford back in 02, the youth pastors' wife had a field day messing with me. I couldn't understand much of anything she said, and she just got a kick outta that, too funny. My fanny pack be dambed, or "bum bag", excuse me. I spent a couple of hours writing up all the funky slang betwixt us Yanks and Brits while I was there and I can't find the bloomin thing. It was hilarious, to say the least.

I recon all of us would be in the same boat if we ever went down south in Louisiana, Cajon country. After Hurricane Katrina I ran into a few of them, just shook my head and move on, lol.

Sorry to drift off topic, but yes, Chris, to each our own. I don't fancy cars cause I can't keep anything that clean, and ships will always be too big when I'm done, but I will take on AC and armor, too. It just so happens that figure painting, facial work mainly, is my current goal and focus.

Ruck On, I say, Ruck On!

Back to more fig vids.

Here is another vid that may be helpful to yall. Once again, he's using a technique that I have honestly never used in the past but am working it into my processes now. Stippling. I've heard and read it so many times, but when it comes to working the brush, it has always evaded my consciousness when the time came, so it was never attempted. This really is a great technique, I can tell, and I'll be mindful of it on the next go round. Enjoy. Yes, this is using oils, almost forgot to mention that.