Turret Bunkers

[Dave Ward]

The Germans used tank turrets as bunkers on the Ostwall, and in Italy, generally Panther, but also Panzer IV. Who manned these turret bunkers? -was it regular tank crew, artillery men, or anti-tank people? I've looked at various pictures, but none seem to give any info on personnel. Just the beginnings of an idea for a small diorama................
Dave

[Guest]

Because of which uniforms to put on the crews? Most photos seem to be of captured ones in Italy, so that doesn’t help. I did find this series showing Germans, but it’s in Italy too, rather than the Eastern Front:


(source)

Apparently this was an inspection, so I guess in the last photo, the man wearing the darker uniform, who is pointing to something on the turret, is one of the crew.

I guess you probably wouldn’t go wrong if you put in a crew wearing regular rather than tank uniforms, especially given the state of German logistics near the end of the war.

[Dave Ward]

Jakko,
most of the pictures I looked at were of captured/destroyed bunkers, but those you found seemm not to show any distinctive featires, just the standard tunic & forage cap
I actually found a YouTube Video

Judging by the snow on the ground in some views, it is the Eastern Front - interesting that one has been dug into a city street! Most appear to have the commanders cupola removed & replaced with a simple hatch.
Dave

[Gary MacKenzie]

Renault tank turret versions

http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ouisterham-renault-FC-turret-tank.html

quote: Not all the tank turrets had working guns installed. They were used to provide armoured protection for artillery observers who would radio or phone gun crews at different points within the network of defensive bunkers, new target locations.




From Osprey Fortress - 45 -- German Defences in Italy in World War II

"The men who manned these turrets formed part of a Festungs (Panther-Turm) Kompanie normally made up of 12 turrets. In April 1944, Tenth Army established a Panther turret company to man the positions on the Hitler Line. This was attached to 15th Panzergrenadier Division, which initially held the Liri Valley, and when this division was relieved Kampfgruppe Straffner absorbed the Panther turret company. 1st Fallschirmjager Division manned other turrets along the line, particularly around Piedimonte in the shadow of Monte Cassino. After the battle one of the men of this division, Gefreiter Fries, was awarded the Knight's Cross for his part in destroying a number of Allied tanks. The turrets manned by crews from 15th Panzergrenadier Division were seemingly not as fortunate as their comrades as many were killed during the battle.

The Panther turret company that manned the turrets on the Hitler Line was later reformed under Tenth Army and given the designation Festungs (PantherTurm) Kp.l. This unit manned the Panther turrets at the eastern end of the Green Line. A sister unit, Festungs (Panther-Turm) Kp.2, was established by Fourteenth Army in July 1944 to man positions in the west and to cover the central passes. Later in the war the organization of Panther turret crews became more ordered so that in addition to these two companies, Festungs (PantherTurm) Kp. 1209 and 1210 were formed. By the beginning of April 1945, all of these units were stationed in the Voralpenstellung in north-eastern Italy.

More normally the defensive positions were manned by ordinary artillerymen, grenadiers, infantrymen or quasi infantry like the Fallschirmjager who since the successful, but costly, landing on Crete had been used as ground troops rather than as an airborne assault force. With relatively few exceptions - some of the larger permanent defences and the Panther turrets being good examples - the unit manning the position was responsible for providing the weaponry whether it be an artillery, anti-tank or anti-aircraft gun, a mortar, a Nebelwerfer or simply a machine gun.

Often the fighting positions were linked to OT steel shelters or dugouts. These provided the troops with protection against the elements and somewhere to eat and sleep. They were often fitted with bunk beds and a stove for warmth and to cook on. More importantly they also provided a safe haven against enemy fire. Once the enemy barrage and air attacks had subsided the defenders would emerge from their subterranean refuge and man their weapons.

This was especially true of the paratroopers defending Monte Cassino. Work on the Gustav Line had begun during the autumn of 1943 and eventually some 44,000 men, under the direction of Engineer General Bessell, were set to work on this position. They included army construction units, Organization Todt personnel, Italian auxiliaries and labour battalions. The latter would sometimes be hired in exchange for food or tobacco, which after four years of war were in short supply, or German soldiers simply rounded men up at the point of a gun and forced them to work."

[Andy the Sheep]

The shoulder strap of the pointing man in the last picture shows a light colored edge. My educated guess is that the waffenfarbe should be white or pink.

[Dave Ward]

So. it seems that virtually any fighting unit could be found manning the turrets - that makes it easier to find some figures! I should think that there would be similar arrangements on the Eastern Front.............
Dave

[Gary MacKenzie]

So. it seems that virtually any fighting unit could be found manning the turrets - that makes it easier to find some figures! I should think that there would be similar arrangements on the Eastern Front.............
Dave

I'll see what I can find about the Eastern Front

[Guest]

those you found seemm not to show any distinctive featires, just the standard tunic & forage cap

That’s what I was thinking too: just a standard uniform. Like Andrea I noticed the light-coloured piping on the shoulder board, but which colour that was … your guess is as good as mine.

Most appear to have the commanders cupola removed & replaced with a simple hatch.

Most turrets used on Pantherturm-bunkers were purpose-built, not recycled from tanks. They had thicker roof armour than the tank turret and, like you say, a simple hatch instead of a cupola. If you see a regular Panther turret as an emplacement, chances are it’s actually a dug-in tank instead — there are pictures of some in Panzer Wrecks 13: Italy 2, for example.

[Peter Gillson]

Hi Dave

the answer to your question is; it depends ...! It depends on what they were defending. Built as part of a general defensive line they could be manned by infantry or SS troops. However if they were used as part of the defence of an artillery installation it becomes a little more complex. Rather strangely artillery installations were manned, and controlled by the arm of service related to what theie main targets would be. So in Guernsey the batteries which were primarily defence against naval targets would be manned and controlled by the Navy; anti-aircraft battery by the Luftwaffe; and land forces by the army. airfirld defense would be Luftwaffe troops. Therefore tank turrets or 'ringstande fur kampfwagentume' as they were called, could be manned by any of the three services.

The Germans were fond of using the turrets of out of date tanks, especially those of captured tanks. Here in Guernsey there were two main types of turret used:

APX-R taken from Renault R-35 and Hotchkiss H-35/39 tanks with 37mm SA18 main gun with coaxial mg; ond
The turret from the Renault FT17 with either a 37mm SA18 or 7..5mm mg.

in terms of numbers, there were 8 APX-R ringstande and 66 FT17 in Guernsey alone. Alderney had a further 19 turrets, while jersey had 11 APX-R and 52 Renault FT17.

known by the Allies as Turbruk pits becasue that is where they were first encountered the Germans had a standard design for the 'mini-bunker' which they were installed in, although this was often combined with other structures. The design was the VF69, this diagram is for the PzIII version:




If anybody is interested in delving further into the turrets in the Channel Islands the Channel Islands' Occupation Society has included articles about them in three of its annual Review books, which are available from its website: http://www.ciosguernsey.org.gg/shop.html

number 37 features Jersey;
number 37 features Alderney
number 40 features Guernsey.

As a source of reference, here are a few photos from the books:







And finally an interesting example of cammo:




peter

[Dave Ward]

I've found a pair of bunker bases, one urban, the other field

Resized from 1/56 to 1/35, the field bunker only just fits onto the printer build plate, the urban base should be OK. This is reflected in the projected print times of 12 hours for the field, 10 for the urban - definitely overnight jobs. One potential problem is that with thin, rather flat objects, you can have unpleasant warping!
Dave

[Gary MacKenzie]

I've found a pair of bunker bases, one urban, the other field
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Resized from 1/56 to 1/35, the field bunker only just fits onto the printer build plate, the urban base should be OK. This is reflected in the projected print times of 12 hours for the field, 10 for the urban - definitely overnight jobs. One potential problem is that with thin, rather flat objects, you can have unpleasant warping!
Dave

Glue stick ( the large versions of lip balm :-) ) on the bed may help with large flat prints

[Dave Ward]

Glue stick ( the large versions of lip balm :smiling: ) on the bed may help with large flat prints

It can work - I use Pritt Stick - but I've recently got a PEI spring steel build plate, which ( so far ) doesn't need glue. I just wipe the plate with IPA every few prints. It really holds PLA very firmly - you have to wait for the plate to cool before the print releases easily. This theoretically shouldn't let there be any warping, but variations in the print thickness can cause different cooling rates & warping will happen, you can just try to minimise it
Dave

[Guest]

Rather strangely artillery installations were manned, and controlled by the arm of service related to what theie main targets would be. So in Guernsey the batteries which were primarily defence against naval targets would be manned and controlled by the Navy; anti-aircraft battery by the Luftwaffe; and land forces by the army. airfirld defense would be Luftwaffe troops.

Hmm, that was not necessarily the case on Walcheren. Here, we had both German Navy and Army coastal batteries, and the Navy tended to defend its batteries from air attack with its own AA guns. Not sure off the top of my head about whether the Army also had them, but there were Luftwaffe AA batteries too. (And once the Allies had landed, it was mainly the Navy and Luftwaffe troops who fought them the hardest, largely due to the third-rate quality of the Army troops.)

[Peter Gillson]

Jakko

I think I may not have been as clear as I thought.

Where I referred to the role . i was referring to the role of the main battery not all of the ancillery defensive guns. The naval batteries tended to have the long range guns for distance shipping, such as the 30.5 Miras battery which had a combat mission of: "to engage heavy enemy units at long range, to protect convoy routes". All batteries had a real mixture of defensive assets, for instance the full list of the Mirus included:

4 x 30.5 cm guns
3 x 7.5cm guns
9 x 2cm AA guns
1 medium flame thrower
4 x 8cm or 5cm mortars, including an M19 fully automatic 5cm mortar,
16 machine guns
2 x searchlights
1 x radar

for completeness the unit strength was 328 men, al naval personnel. A lot of equipment to support 4, admittedly large, pieces of artillery.


On the other hand, the army batteries would have a focus on closer range for beachheads and inshore craft such as landing craft and their support ships, but their batteries would also have AA capability in the form of 2cm which would have been manned by army personnel.

There were also batteries of 88mm guns which had combat missions primarily related to air defense, but like everywhere would also have been used in an anit-tank role, these were under the control of the Luftwaffe.

However having specific combat missions did not stop any firing at any target; there are records of the 30.5cm Mirus battery being used in a form of anti aircraft role!

But to return to the original question - every arm of service would have used fixed emplacement tank turrets.

Peter

[Guest]

I looked it up, and I remembered it slightly wrong: “we” had only Navy coastal batteries, but also anti-aircraft batteries from both the Navy and the Luftwaffe, as well as Army artillery batteries slightly (a kilometre or so) inland. The latter were mostly intended for defence against actual landings, both at sea and ones that made it ashore.

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Going counterclockwise from the north, Stp. Flensburg, Swinemünde, Tiefland, Rheingold and Fidelio were all Navy coastal batteries. The Army batteries are inland, identified by a symbol that looks like an H with a long vertical line through it.