Battle of Prokohovka help please

[mossiepilot]

I have an idea for a small dio about the above battle. There is a story that a few of the soviet tanks deliberatly rammed tiger tanks, and I thought this would be a good subject, with the two tanks being close together the dio will not be too big.

My request is for information about the actual units involved and the colour schemes and unit markings used. I have an Airfix Tiger 1 and a T-34/76 waiting in the wings.

Any info will be gratefully received.

Tony.

[Guest]

The Battle of Kursk

Try this.

John

[Guest]

A very interesting read but "Sicily tactically insignificant"? I should cocoa

If you fancy a dio of a King Tiger getting rammed

"James Baron, who has died aged 87, was awarded an immediate Military Medal for charging and ramming a German King Tiger tank in Normandy in 1944 while serving with Armoured Irish Guards.

On July 18 the 2nd Armoured Battalion of the Irish Guards was taking part in a powerful armoured thrust near Cagny in Operation Goodwood, which aimed to isolate Caen from the east and free the Allied forces to the west for the forthcoming breakout of Normandy.

The Irish Guards were equipped with Sherman tanks, which had proved to be a reliable fighting vehicle, but were outclassed by the German Tiger and Panther tanks. On the Western Front, the Allies had no answer to Hitler's latest weapon, the King Tiger, armed with an 88 mm gun, originally designed as an anti-aircraft gun. Intelligence reports that it was about to make its appearance in Normandy were received with considerable apprehension.

"What do we do if we meet a King Tiger?" Lance-Corporal Baron had asked his troop commander, Lieutenant John Gorman, at a briefing a few days earlier. "The only thing we can do," Gorman told his driver, "is to use naval tactics. If the 88 mm gun is pointing away from us, we shall have to use the speed of the Sherman and ram it."

On the afternoon of July 18, as Gorman came round the corner of a hedge in his Sherman, he saw four German tanks 300 yards away in the middle of a field. There was an old-fashioned Tiger, a Panther, an old Mark IV and a King Tiger - the first seen in battle on the Western Front.

The King Tiger's devastating 88 mm gun was pointing at one of Gorman's troop on the rise behind him. The Sherman's 75 mm gun was little more use than a pea-shooter against the King Tiger's armour - armour piercing shells would bounce off it. "Driver, ram!" shouted Gorman.

The Sherman crashed through a thin hedge and careered down the slope at 40 mph towards the King Tiger. With 75 yards to go before impact, the Sherman's gunner, Guardsman Scholes, fired a high-explosive shell at the King Tiger. Although it did not penetrate the armour, he felt that it would give the Germans something to worry about.

The British tank slid down beside the long barrel and struck the King Tiger hard at the rear of its right track. With the Sherman's turret only a few inches from the 88 mm weapon, Gorman's crew were like birds sitting on a sportsman's gun. On impact, both crews baled out and went in opposite directions - except one man, Guardsman Agnew, the front gunner, who, finding his exit blocked and having to scramble back to the turret, was the last out of the tank.

As Agnew dropped to the ground, he saw four men running for a ditch and promptly joined them. They were the German crew. After an exchange of cold stares, being a punctilious sort of man, he saluted smartly and disappeared into a cornfield to rejoin his comrades.

Gorman ordered Baron and the others to stay where they were; he set off on a zig-zag run through the orchards, where he found a Firefly tank. Gorman returned with the Firefly and completed the destruction of the King Tiger and the Sherman with the 17-pounder gun.

Meanwhile, the crew had been caught in an artillery barrage. When two guardsmen were wounded, Baron made a rough bed for them and stayed with his friends until they were picked up by a passing tank.

For their parts in this action, Corporal Baron received the MM and Lt Gorman the MC.

James Baron was born at Clayton-le-Moors, Lancashire, on April 15 1915 and educated at the local school. His family moved to Great Harwood when he was a boy, and at the age of 14 he was working in the textile industry.

Baron enlisted in the Coldstream Guards in 1936 and trained at the Guards Depot, Caterham, before joining the 2nd Battalion at Windsor. He purchased his discharge the following year to join the Lancashire Constabulary, but was called up in 1940 and re-enlisted in the Irish Guards.

In 1941 Baron was selected for armoured training and qualified as a tank driver on the Crusader Mark I. He joined the 2nd Armoured Battalion Irish Guards in 1942 and was promoted to lance-corporal in May. After landing with the battalion on the Arromanches beaches on July 1 1944, he fought with his unit in the drive for the Seine and across north-west Germany, ending the war near Bremen.

Having left the Army in 1946 in the rank of sergeant, Baron returned to the textile industry as a technician at the Palatine Mill, Great Harwood; he retired in 1981. He entered the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, as an In-Pensioner in 1991 but left the following year and moved to Blackburn. "

[mossiepilot]

Oh bum John, I already got the Tiger 1 and the T-34, and after reading that essay I don't know what to do with them now.

Andy, thanks for the great bit of info, but in the essay from John, the author says the rammed tank was a tiger, mmmmmm, is anything I read and think I know about WW2 actually real, or are all the stories just myths and propaganda.

Still, I'm sure I'll think of something, and in the end I don't really need a reason to build them, because the end result is the last bit of the most enjoyable part, the build itself.

Tony.

[Guest]

Yes he says it was a tiger but I think the story above is about a different incident, it'd make a fantastic dio though :thinking:

[Guest]

Sorry to have put a spanner in the works Tony but i think it would still make a good Dio.

John

[papa 695]

The rumours and stories are there about T-34's ramming Tiger tanks, so why not make a diorama about it ? i hope you do and look forward to seeing the build unfold Tony

All the best Ian

[mossiepilot]

You know I was thinking the same thing, Just because it didn't really happen doesn't mean it wouldn't make a good subject for a dio, fiction can be as good as fact.

Doing a dio, here I come :emo13:

So back to the original question, anyone got any info on colour schemes and unit markings for Tiger and T-34 tanks operating in the area please.

Tony.

[Guest]

A bit extra to what Andy contributed .... the story from both sides

THE GORMAN STORY

[Editor's note: With the exception of the first and last paragraphs which were not available, this passage is taken from the account in Alexander McKee's, "Caen, Anvil of Victory".]

My name is Gorman and, at the time of Goodwood, I was a platoon leader in the 2nd Irish Guards Armored Regiment, which was equipped with Shermans. During the afternoon of July 18th we fought in the hedgerow country northeast of Cagny. Two or three groups, each with four or five Tigers that were making good use of the cover, seemed to be opposing our 5th Guards Armored Brigade. They would suddenly emerge from their cover, fire, and cost us several losses. We attempted to attack with the company closed up, whereupon the Tigers again disappeared in their cover, onlt to appear again and repeat the whole process anew. This was my first time in action and I was excited. I had got across the little stream running into Cagny from the northeast, but the rest of my troop got stuck. However, I pushed on alone for a bit and found plenty of targets and was beginning to think this war business was not too bad after all; in fact, I was beginning to enjoy myself. But this didn't last long for, on glancing to my left, I saw to my horror the unmistakable shape of a Royal Tiger coming through a hedge under 200 yards away. I ordered my gunner: "Traverse left-on-fire!" He fired and I saw with dismay the 75mm shot hit the front of the Tiger, bounce off and go sizzling up into the air. I ordered the gunner to fire again, but a hollow voice came up from the bowels of the tank saying "Gun jammed, sir." This was a situation for which I had not been trained and I did not know what to do. Glancing anxiously at the Tiger. I saw with horror that his long gun was slowly swinging around in my direction. Someone had once told me that when in doubt the thing to do was advance, so I ordered my driver to advance at full speed and ram the Tiger. We lurched forward, gathered speed, and hit him amidships with a terrific crash, just before he got his sights on to me. Both crews bailed out on impact and, since there was quite heavy shelling, both crews dived for cover. My wireless operator saw a convenient slit trench and, jumping into it, found it already occupied by the Tiger's crew. However, they both stayed there together, keeping their heads down. I crawled back, brought up my 17-pounder Sherman and managed to brew the Tiger. I then collected my crew and the Tiger's crew, and we went back and got another tank. I recount this little story because it may well be the only example in the late war in which an army unit used the old naval tactic of ramming.

Sources:

1. Staff College, Camberly, Battlefield Tour 1956, p. 44 (first and last paragraph)

2. Alexander McKee "Caen, Anvil of Victory" London 1964, page 273ff. (remainder of narrative)

THE THAYSEN STORY

As I remember it, the English attack started at 1500 hours. Up until that time we kept ourselves busy wiping away sweat. It was a blistering hot summer day. We could scarcely keep the hatches open because of the on-going artillery fire. The attack that started at about 1500 hours was supported by a tremendous number of British tanks. The main line of resistance was overrun in a few minutes. Only the 1./schwere Panzer-Abteiling 503 and a few antitank guns held for a little time. Soon the British were between, in front of and behind us. This had as a result that neither we nor the English knew who or what was where. In the meantime, both the German and English artillery fired wildly into the midst of it all. And, of course, the British and German infantry were right in there, too.

Tiger 112, the tank in which I was gunner, was engaged with one Englishman while we were fired on by others. That caused my tank commander ( a newcomer, without combat experience), to well, let's say....to have the tank put in reverse, almost in a panic. We lunged back, right through a hedge, the type you usually found there.

Obviously, the commander was a bit out of it, since he must have seen that another tank was behind the hedge. In any case, there was a jolt, and we were hung up with an Englishman. There was no way that we intended to ram the enemy, the more so since we ran into him with the rear of the tank and I was still at 12 o'clock, busy with the Tommy that was firing at us. Scarcely had we run into the Englishman when, apparently, a 75mm PaK firing at the Englishman hit us instead. It hit us in the left between the track and the running gear. The round penetrated and sliced the seat right out from under my backside. I found myself on the turret floor. At the same time, the round tore open a shell casing and the propellant charge ignited in a jet of flame. There was nothing for us but to bail out. The radio operator, loader and tank commander were the first ones out. The driver, Horst Becher, who lives today in Braunschweig, was able to grab his pistol and, after bailing out, did target practice at the Englishmen who were around the tank. And that was quite a sight, since he still had his head-phones with the ripped-out cords dangling on his ears. On dismounting through the turret hatch, I landed on a member of the English crew who, presumably, was also somewhat out of it. Apparently he thought I was one of his crew. For a moment, we looked at each other in a daze. Then a rush of heroism awoke in both of us. Each grabbed for the place where he'd usually find his pistol. Heroism failed from a lack of lethal materials. Since our tank started to burn, both of us started to crawl away from it and, since things were lively all around, we both sought cover in a hole behind the Tommy's tank. With one of us in the left corner and the other in the right one, we eyed each other and each tried to convince the other, with hands and feet, that the other was his prisoner. Since it turned out that each of us had opposite opinoins about that, both of us shrugged our shoulders, grinned at each other and bolted for our own sides.

So that was that. It would be nice if I could meet one of the Englishmen.

(Hans-Joachim Thaysen )

notes:

1.Thaysen's comments note the Tiger as 112 while the book text noted it as Tiger 122. I would imagine that one or the other is a typo.

2. These events occurred on July 18, 1944



There's also lots of info that seems to fortify the fact that tanks were used as rams and it isn't just a load of russion propaganda.

i.e. During World War II, the tanks crews would sometimes use their own vehicles to run over enemy positions (personnel, artillery etc.) instead of firing upon it. This tactic was especially popularised in Soviet Union. Facing the German Tiger or Panther tanks, the crewmen of T-34 tanks, who lacked the firepower to break their thick armour, sometimes preferred to use the speed and manouverability of their tanks to drive straight into Germans, gambling that the impact will break the enemy's tracks and immobilize it. Moreover, the attack could end with jamming the Tiger's turret, either by blocking it with T-34's own body or by damaging the turret's drive, eliminating the risk to the remaining Soviet units. However there was a serious risk of being destroyed by German guns before reaching the enemy tanks. In addition, sometimes (especially if the T-34 ran into the enemy's back), the ramming would rupture a Tiger's or a Panther's fuel tank and cause a fire, destroying both vehicles.

The battle apparently had two major contributers (for your tank markings reference) these were...

the german unit

2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the russian force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Guards_Tank_Army_(Soviet_Union)

Hope this helps a bit and i'll have another look around later if i get another spare half hour ok.

[Guest]

I have an idea for a small dio about the above battle. There is a story that a few of the soviet tanks deliberatly rammed tiger tanks, and I thought this would be a good subject, with the two tanks being close together the dio will not be too big.My request is for information about the actual units involved and the colour schemes and unit markings used. I have an Airfix Tiger 1 and a T-34/76 waiting in the wings.

Any info will be gratefully received.

Tony.

Hi Tony don't know if this is a bit late but here we go, On the evening of July 11th lieutenant- general pavel rotmistrov... commander of the 5th guards army was forced to commit 2 brigades of his tanks to prevent the fall of Prokhorovka to the germans, by late evening the soviets had seen off the german attacks but both sides steeled themselves for what would be long and bloody attacks that would come the following day.

July 12th 1943 The sound of tank engines warming up could be heard long before the coming dawn, as the morning broke the landscape was visably obscured by showers and a cold eastern wind periodically the sun would break through allowing the observer a clearer perspective. The SS panzer corps commanders who were standing in the turrets of their tanks would have shown a very constricted battlefield withit's northern boundary firmly anchored by the winding ribbon of the Psel river. Swinging southeast the land scape had a traditional rolling steppe of the upper donets valley, with fields of rye and wheat.

The battle opened with large numbers of Lufftwaffe aircraft bombing soviet positions, shortly before 08:30 hrs in the vacinity of Prokhorovka. The first echelon of german armour begins to advance, panzers from the 1st SS panzergrenadier division, Leibstandarte adolf hitler and the 3rd SS panzer division Totenkopf depoly in a tight wedge formation with it's tigers at the front flanked by panzer IIIs and IVs. The germans come under heavy soviet bombardment from the artillery and katyusha positions which is the prelimenary to their own advance. At virtually the same time, the first mass of soviet armour breaks cover and accelerates toward the approaching german tanks. The speed is deliberate as it is the intention of the soviets to close down the range so the longer german 88s would be at a disadvantage.

The clash of the armoured fists sees ferocious and chaotic melee characterised by many small-sacle actions as tank fights tank in such a small area at almost piont blank range. The soviet armour seeks to outflank the heavier german tanks as the tigers remain stationery to fire. The ferocity of the encounter is typical of all armoured clashes throughout the day and into thhours of darkness. Shortly before noon Totenkopf is assailed by two soviet tank corps and is forced onto the defensive in a ferocious battle thatlasts throughout the 12th; it losses many men and machines. Throughout the second day SS panzergrenadier division DAS REICH is engaged in a very heavy action fighting with the II guards tank corps, and its advance is severley limited by the soviet armour. By the end of the day, with fighting continuing even as the darkness falls, the soviets estimate losses on both sides during this battle at a total of 700 machines.

this is just a brief running comentary of the battle if you want a full detailed account then Kursk 1943 the tide turns in the east. by osprey publishing by mark healy is a fantastic book.

hope this helps

Scott

[mossiepilot]

Thanks Colin and Scott, the info is great and just the job for the background of the dio. Don't know when I'll be starting this as I've got a few other things on the go at the moment, but I'm really looking forward to doing it now.

Cheers again.

Tony.