wow what great detail this one,has,very nice work,
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...and major problem tonight... sigh.
(noob warning)
Background:
I bought Ammo of mig paint for this King Tiger since I love the various historically correct colours Mig Jimenez & co have developed - but so far I've only used Tamiya paints, and not a lot I shall add.
Anyhow, when I started modelling again I bought a cheap airbrush, a Harder & Steenbeck Ultra, and started experimenting. To cut a long story short I came to the conclusion that Tamiya acrylics + cellulose thinner was the best solution for me and it sprays fantastic and dries super fast!
Two days ago I used Ammo of mig primer - One shot - for the first time and it clogged up my airbrush. I didn't thin it out since it said it didn't need it but it took forever to prime the engine due to all the cleaning sessions meanwhile... The end results were good though so I decided to use thinner the next time.
There's the background and the state I started painting two hours ago.
I was going to paint with mig's Cremeweiss this time on parts that I previously primed.
I'm old enough to try before you do something for real the first time so I grabbed a practice piece that was primed and I dropped in 8 drops of paint and 3 drops of cellulose thinner in the airbrush and mixed it. It looked like it split but I decided to try it anyway and it sprayed well for 2 seconds before the airbrush totally clogged up! Totally!
I cleaned out all the paint, added thinner first this time and then paint and mixed, but this time I mixed it a lot more. I'm using a small brush to mix the paint in the cup by the way. Nothing dodgy or so...
After 10 seconds of mixing the damn thing emulsified and became more like whipped gritty cream... F...
Cleaned the airbrush thoroughly and I discovered that the blockage/clog had pushed paint all the way back into the rear cover piece of the airbrush. That's never happened before!
Ok, mig paint and cellulose thinner is obviously not compatible - that's blatantly obvious!
I've got some Vallejo non-toxic acrylic thinner as well so now I tried that. First 6 drops of paint and 3 drops of thinner. Way thinner than it should be but I wasn't taking any risks after the previous total failure.
It sprayed well and didn't clog up the airbrush - but a few seconds after being sprayed the paint and the thinner separated on the surface. It looked like one of those novel effect spray paints for spraying cracked paint.
I wiped off the paint from the test piece, cleaned the airbrush and this time put 8 drops of paint and 1 careful drop of thinner in the cup and mixed. I grabbed a new brush to mix with to be on the safe side and to rule out contamination.
It sprayed ok but it still separated on the surface.
I decided to go in at the deep end and sprayed the top piece of the engine since I didn't trust the test piece any more, but of course it split.
I only sprayed with a fine mist in order not to fudge it big and decided to spray it with several thin coats and hope the split scenario would cure itself. It didn't. Not fully...
Here are some pictures showing the problem:
First the test piece and you can see how it's split and looking "spotted" even after a third coat.
Here's the side of the real piece after a second coat. Still spots. The paint is not dry, hence the "wet" look but it's not different now 15 minutes later.
Here's a better view of the problem in another spot.
In order to try to rectify the problem I sprayed a bit thicker coat on the top and it has somewhat worked - but it's at the cost of losing detail...
I don't know what to do? Use water as thinner? Order the specific A.MIG-2000 thinner???
Sadly they don't write on the thinner bottles what they're containing so I can't work out what's going on here with my different thinners...
I would really appreciate some help here because I'm lost and I don't want to put the tank in the garbage and start again.
Worst case scenario I trash the mig paints and go back to Tamiya + cellulose thinner but I've bough quite a lot of different colours and they work for others so there's no reason why it shouldn't work for me? (unless I'm suddenly gifted with the Sadim touch - reverse Midas touch - where everything you touch turn into shit instead of gold...)
Damn! It was going so well and I was really enjoying it - and now everything's crap.
So tonight's post is a request for help and not pictures of successful progress.
Many thanks in advance!Comment
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To get my confidence back a bit I decided to prime the road wheels to my Sd.Kfz.184 Elefant, but with Tamiya black and my already tried ~20% cellulose thinner I've used prior to this mig experience and I now feel a bit better knowing that it's the paint that's being stupid and not me.
Whilst awaiting some suggestions here I will now spend the rest of the night/morning looking at Ammo of mig videos on YouTube trying to understand how they're using their products?Comment
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What a great work are you doing. And excellent thread as well!Comment
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Assumption is dangerous and my assumption that migs acrylic paint was the same as Tamiya and Vallejo turned out to be totally wrong. "Acrylic" can apparently mean a lot of things... sigh.
This is the video I should've watched before even ordering the paint - let alone attempted to use it!
It doesn't explain though why the One Shot primer clogged up my airbrush when I used it straight from the bottle?
It's almost 6 o'clock in the morning here now so I'm not sure another attempt with this new information is the right thing to do before grabbing some sleep, before it's time to go up again and deal with the usual morning chores that comes with kids and animals...
...but using Ammo of mig apparently requires patience and practise. Not adding a couple of drops of the wrong thinner just because it worked so well with Tamiya.
ZZZzzzzzzz..........Comment
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Still not decided if painting or sleeping - but here's another video that explains the difference between working with mig and other paints.
With a bit of luck others can learn from my mistake.
Mistakes is still by far the best method to learn something - but it can be a really annoying method for learning...
Now it's time to hug the pillow!Comment
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Got some sleep and some more thinking and I've now - by the book - attempted to use mig paint like it's supposed to be used. No thinner, just low air pressure and several thin, almost misted, layers until coverage was achieved. Drying each layer with the air from the airbrush as per instruction.
It sort of worked-ish. Primer still clogs the airbrush so that's about to go into the bin. Some paints worked better than others but I only tried four of them.
Giving up feels wrong so I will carefully continue to use these mig paints for my King Tiger - but I really doubt I'll ever use them again when you compare this ordeal with my Tamiya + thinner solution that works flawlessly and takes very little time and effort to clean. Cleaning the airbrush after each colour takes minutes. That's not feasible since I wan't to use more than one colour during the same session.
If you have experience with these mig paints and can assist in any way, shape or form, I'd appreciate if you could write a couple of lines here!
I can salvage the fan cover of the engine so nothing's lost, and the build can continue, but I'm priming with Tamiya paint - that's for sure!
p.s. My conclusion so far is that AMMO of mig is a vinyl acrylic paint, hence its inability to mix with everything I've thrown at it - water included.Comment
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Firstly, my suggestion is this.
If you have an H and S Ultra, It does not have cellulose resistant o rings. Do not use extensive cellulose thinner, otherwise it will decrease the life of your airbrush.
If you want the detail back, strip the paint back with this-
I personally use Gunze Mr Hobby Aqueous and MR Color lacquer paints, their color matching is known to be the best in the hobby and their spraying properties are brilliant. MIG is owned/backed by Vallejo, so that might give you a clue as to why your complications has happened. Also, do not mix this with any other type of paint. MIG AMMO paints are very individualised and do not spray well with other paints. In other words, if using Tamiya paints as well, clean out your airbrush VERY well as the paint remnants can react.
Also, what primer are you using? Mr Hobby 1000 and 1500 is very very good. Lacquer primers are extremely good.
Cheers, JohnComment
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Hi John and a big thank you for your reply!Firstly, my suggestion is this.
If you have an H and S Ultra, It does not have cellulose resistant o rings. Do not use extensive cellulose thinner, otherwise it will decrease the life of your airbrush.
If you want the detail back, strip the paint back with this-
I personally use Gunze Mr Hobby Aqueous and MR Color lacquer paints, their color matching is known to be the best in the hobby and their spraying properties are brilliant. MIG is owned/backed by Vallejo, so that might give you a clue as to why your complications has happened. Also, do not mix this with any other type of paint. MIG AMMO paints are very individualised and do not spray well with other paints. In other words, if using Tamiya paints as well, clean out your airbrush VERY well as the paint remnants can react.
Also, what primer are you using? Mr Hobby 1000 and 1500 is very very good. Lacquer primers are extremely good.
Cheers, John
The incompatibility of AMMO by Mig and other thinners/paints/whatever was learned the hard way last night, but since I've read up on the subject and now know why, where and when I fudged it up. Won't happen again and I've gained some experience
I sat for quite a while earlier today and just practised with AMMO paint on a couple of PET bottles and I've now got a working process that gives me an acceptable finish. Not as good as I get with Tamiya + cellulose thinner, but acceptable. I had planned to do some detailed brushwork on the model too but currently I don't know how to go about doing that so more practise is required. This because you must apply AMMO paint in very thin layers, otherwise it'll split/separate and look horrible.
I will finish this project with the AMMO paint I've bought, but I doubt I'll use them again. To get some self-confidence back after yesterdays fiasco I painted a Tiger I tonight with Tamiya paints and it was the best paint job I've done so far! All the careful practising to make the AMMO paint work had a positive effect on my over-all skills in the paint department!
Regarding the o-rings that I didn't know. Huge thanks!!!
I shall replace them with others that work with cellulose thinner, but in the long run I'm going to stop using that as thinner and instead try isopropanol.
I suspect iso can/will eat o-rings as well so I might have to replace them regardless?
The fantastic quality and fast drying is worth the hassle so far I think.
Learn by doing is a fantastic way to learn new skills, but I'd prefer if it'd happened on a practise kit and not this one...
Anyhow, I've got a technique that works now with AMMO paint, and I've just placed an order for their own thinner because without it the paint dries in the nozzle quickly and then you're in for a 10 minute cleaning session of the airbrush.
For primer I decided to try AMMOs One Shot primer for this build but I have to admit that that bottle is currently resting on the bottom of the dustbin right now!
Normally I'm using normal Tamiya black + 25% thinner and it works fantastically well! I only wish I could get hold of bigger bottles than the usual 10 ml Tamiya jars from my supplier... They are not easy to pour from.
Tonight I'm going to try to get some sleep instead of fudging paints, but tomorrow I'm going at it again!
Cheers and thanks a bunch for the help!!!Comment
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No problems at all.Hi John and a big thank you for your reply!
The incompatibility of AMMO by Mig and other thinners/paints/whatever was learned the hard way last night, but since I've read up on the subject and now know why, where and when I fudged it up. Won't happen again and I've gained some experience
I sat for quite a while earlier today and just practised with AMMO paint on a couple of PET bottles and I've now got a working process that gives me an acceptable finish. Not as good as I get with Tamiya + cellulose thinner, but acceptable. I had planned to do some detailed brushwork on the model too but currently I don't know how to go about doing that so more practise is required. This because you must apply AMMO paint in very thin layers, otherwise it'll split/separate and look horrible.
I will finish this project with the AMMO paint I've bought, but I doubt I'll use them again. To get some self-confidence back after yesterdays fiasco I painted a Tiger I tonight with Tamiya paints and it was the best paint job I've done so far! All the careful practising to make the AMMO paint work had a positive effect on my over-all skills in the paint department!
Regarding the o-rings that I didn't know. Huge thanks!!!
I shall replace them with others that work with cellulose thinner, but in the long run I'm going to stop using that as thinner and instead try isopropanol.
I suspect iso can/will eat o-rings as well so I might have to replace them regardless?
The fantastic quality and fast drying is worth the hassle so far I think.
Learn by doing is a fantastic way to learn new skills, but I'd prefer if it'd happened on a practise kit and not this one...
Anyhow, I've got a technique that works now with AMMO paint, and I've just placed an order for their own thinner because without it the paint dries in the nozzle quickly and then you're in for a 10 minute cleaning session of the airbrush.
For primer I decided to try AMMOs One Shot primer for this build but I have to admit that that bottle is currently resting on the bottom of the dustbin right now!
Normally I'm using normal Tamiya black + 25% thinner and it works fantastically well! I only wish I could get hold of bigger bottles than the usual 10 ml Tamiya jars from my supplier... They are not easy to pour from.
Tonight I'm going to try to get some sleep instead of fudging paints, but tomorrow I'm going at it again!
Cheers and thanks a bunch for the help!!!
iso does not eat the o rings mate- The Gunze Acqueous thinner is the stuff to use for me. It is based on iso. It also thins tamiya acrylic paints as well. But yeah, I am of the opinion that as good as the AMMO paints are, they are just not compatible enough with other paints in the hobby. Hopefully they will fix their formula up to be more user friendly in the future.
Maybe in the future, when you replace the ultra, (which you probably will, by the rate you are enjoying the hobby) look into Iwata's range, or the H and S evolution and infinity. All of Iwata's Japanese made range is resistant to cellulose thinner. I use the Iwata HP CH HI Line and it is a brilliant tool which fulfills all of my modelling needs
Cheers, JohnComment
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Isopropanol is for some reason not easily available up here in Sweden. Why I don't know? I buy mine in aerosol cans right now for cleaning flux on circuit boards - but it's rather expensive...
There are so many chemicals that have been banned the last 10-15 years or so for no apparent reason. Try buying acids for deep etching metals, or just bog standard garden fertiliser and they just look funny at you... sigh. I can understand to a certain extent that peroxides, acids etc have to be regulated - but hobby sized bottles makes no bombs imho.
I'll do as I normally do and resort to uncle eBay for things hard to find
I've still got an awful lot to learn about airbrushing but I've discovered that if you don't rush it and plan ahead, then the Ultra works ok. It's a bit crude and basic but easy to use. Very small bowl for paint though.
A better compressor would probably be the first thing to upgrade since I'm using the cheapest of cheap entry level plastic membrane ones right now. It was supplied by H & S so it must've passed some verification, but it certainly lacks in the airflow department! (It's however working really well with my thinned Tamiya paints)
I thought about bringing in my proper compressor (with two tanks) from the workshop in the barn, but it's just too damn noisy and would require a 2:nd stage reducer or something to ensure you don't accidentally blow a hole in your precious scale model when painting!
This'll have to work for now - but I do see an upgrade in the not to far distance, and having two airbrushes will be very handy too, especially when using paint of different properties, and/or the need for different nozzle sizes?! Compressor I should be able to find a better one 2:nd hand with a bit of luck.
The Iwata line seems very nice! I can really see how accurate adjustment is a nice feature to have instead of constantly relying on a finger, that can - and will - slip sometimes.
I'm old enough to know that cheap tools are almost always more expensive in the long run, unless you only need it once.
Thinking back to the horrible glues and paints we had 30+ years ago compared to what I've got here right next to me now is exciting, and the sole reason why I'm so happy to have found this hobby again! Now I can finally realise what I couldn't do back in the days, and having access to such detailed scale models! I was going to build a car, or perhaps a boat, when I was finished with the big house I bought to restore - but an accident put a stop to that. House will have to be finished somehow anyway, but scale models have filled a big creative gap and so far it's the best form of therapy I've come across!
The biggest lesson learned from this unfortunate event is to don't assume two similar things are the same, and to thoroughly test the thing before using it for real.
I've just seen people painting plastic spoons to test their paint and it's not a bad idea actually. I'm using spare parts to practise, but plastic spoons can be bought in big bags for cheap.
Many thanks for you valuable help and input!!!
CheersComment
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After the fudge with my (lack of) paint skills I realised I needed to practise a lot more on all the other steps than the assembly itself to not write another chapter in the King Tiger fudge book, so last night practising painting on the sibling, and one of the trainer tanks, the Tiger I, I gave it a clear coat earlier today and half an hour ago I placed the first decals on a model in over 30 years!
I've bought both Vallejo matt varnish and a spray can of the same stuff. Same as in name, not contents...?
Anyhow, it sprayed well but damn it was way too glossy so now I know I won't use that again on my models. I did sort of expect this result but that's why I'm building all the trainer tanks too
The decals went much better than expected! I put one at a time in the water so it took some time, but who's in a rush...
I've seen people use decal softener so I bought some with my first tanks but it's just been sitting their until now. Sadly I wasn't too impressed by it. It didn't work anything like the Tamiya decal product I've seen on YouTube. The place I'm buying all my models and supplies from didn't have Tamiya decal stuff, but he had Vallejo Decal Medium - supposedly a softener. I applied it both before and after the decal had been placed in the correct spot, and during drying I've been applying the same decal medium another two times, but perfect it ain't.
Should I try to get hold of the Tamiya stuff elsewhere or shall I continue to experiment until it works? I've used a soft, flat, brush to apply the decal medium in order to "stretch" it outwards but no joy.
It only shows if you're right up against the decal so I'm not too worried at this stage, but the King Tiger has zimmerit all over and will require a stronger decal softener I think? More experiments to follow apparently.
The paint fudge has forced me to take a short break with the King Tiger and to focus on the other earlier ones, and that was a good idea because now I'm painting like never before and I'm getting more and more confident.
The Tamiya German Gray XF-63 is much darker than expected, and I even sprayed all flat surfaces with white highlights prior, but it is what it is. It looked better before varnish so tomorrow I'm going to give it another coat of varnish, but this time the Vallejo matt stuff and hope the reflections will stop and thus hopefully make it look better?
This tank was built to test how it was going to be painting when everything was assembled (apart from tools) instead of everything loose and separate painting.
I think I prefer painting cables, road wheels etc separate but unless you try you won't know!
This means I get to play with some weathering tomorrow as well! Exciting but also scary because this is certainly an area where I'm totally green.
I also want to mention paintbrushes. I first bought a set of Humbrol Palpo brush pack but they felt "cheap" when trying to paint details on figures etc. Last order I bough one other paintbrush, a Rotmarder-Kolinsky "Springer-Pinsel" and what a difference! It's pointed and sharp and feels great to use. Perhaps you get what you pay for...
T(h)anks for all you kind comments!!!Comment
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Great work so far Jens, am watching..............Jim
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You shouldn't put decals on clear coat and then use decal fix/softener I presume?
The Vallejo decal softener I used yesterday wasn't exactly friendly to my clear coat and I realised soon thereafter that I should've perhaps put the decals on before coating the thing...
Another lesson learned I guess
This could become a great thread for future beginners on what not to do!
Back to practising my AMMO painting technique. Non-toxic and environmentally friendly perhaps, but user friendly it ain't...
Quick question before I end this off-topic post: I painted my trainer Tiger I with Tamiya German Grey XF-63 and it's too dark imho. Almost black in direct sunlight.
Is the colour accurate and my perception of "German Grey" is wrong, or should I mix in some white before using it on a grey tank next time?
All the reference photos I have are black & white and heavily weathered.Comment
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perhaps try the Aircraft color RLM 66. That was called German Cockpit black-greyYou shouldn't put decals on clear coat and then use decal fix/softener I presume?
The Vallejo decal softener I used yesterday wasn't exactly friendly to my clear coat and I realised soon thereafter that I should've perhaps put the decals on before coating the thing...
Another lesson learned I guess
This could become a great thread for future beginners on what not to do!
Back to practising my AMMO painting technique. Non-toxic and environmentally friendly perhaps, but user friendly it ain't...
Quick question before I end this off-topic post: I painted my trainer Tiger I with Tamiya German Grey XF-63 and it's too dark imho. Almost black in direct sunlight.
Is the colour accurate and my perception of "German Grey" is wrong, or should I mix in some white before using it on a grey tank next time?
All the reference photos I have are black & white and heavily weathered.Comment
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