Ron's 'Home Made' Zimmerit Paste Coating.

[stillp]

I found it, in the Haynes 'owners' manual' for the Tiger. Apparently the Zimmerit was to be applied in two layers, of 2mm, then allowed to dry for 4 hours, then blowtorched, the a further 4mm again allowed to dry then blowtorched, then painted. In cold weather, (even if these timings were complied with) this could mean that some of the benzene content would be sealed in by the paint and would never dry out. The book also mentions various combat reports claiming that the coating had been ignited by hits on the tank.
One of the ingredients was pine resin, which I should think would be flammable to some degree.

I suggest that whoever in the Wehrmacht decided that magnetic mines were a significant threat, and combustion wasn't, would not admit he'd made a mistake.

Pete

[Guest]

I found it, in the Haynes 'owners' manual' for the Tiger. Apparently the Zimmerit was to be applied in two layers, of 2mm, then allowed to dry for 4 hours, then blowtorched, the a further 4mm again allowed to dry then blowtorched, then painted. In cold weather, (even if these timings were complied with) this could mean that some of the benzene content would be sealed in by the paint and would never dry out. The book also mentions various combat reports claiming that the coating had been ignited by hits on the tank.
One of the ingredients was pine resin, which I should think would be flammable to some degree.

I suggest that whoever in the Wehrmacht decided that magnetic mines were a significant threat, and combustion wasn't, would not admit he'd made a mistake.

Pete

The recipe for zimmerit as I've read contains no pine resin, just PVA - but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't mix it up with other types of stuff, especially when applied in field!

40 % Barium sulfate
25 % polyvinyl acetate
15 % pigment
10 % Zinc sulfide
10 % sawdust

I suggest that whoever in the Wehrmacht decided that magnetic mines were a significant threat, and combustion wasn't, would not admit he'd made a mistake.

This is the really strange part - and one I fully agree with - and that's how the decision to use zimmerit was taken so quickly/hastily when the whole German manufacturing industry was so extremely strict and pedantic, taking months to produce a tank and refusing to cut corners, compared to the Russians and the slapped together T-34 which sometimes had huge gaps between the hull plates simply because they didn't fit!?
On the other hand the German steel industry happily melted down cutlery and any old "iron" and similar metals just to be able to produce steel for the tanks - which quickly became apparent when suddenly tanks like the Sherman was able to penetrate Panthers etc due to the armour being too brittle...

The finer details on how and why we will never know but zimmerit must've been a decision taken very quickly and then, as you said, kept in order not to admit fault...

When doing research for modelling you find new stuff all the time and you can add another piece of the puzzle which is something I really love but at the end of the day it's more than 70 years ago WWII ended and a lot of information will never be truly known, which is sadly the case with war efforts. It is amazing though how especially the allies collected accurate(-ish) statistics whereas the Germans falsified theirs on many occasions to boost morale. This makes it really hard to know if something really ever happened?

Anyhow, sorry for long OT - Ron's zimmerit still looks fantastic and miles better than my current decal zimmerit!

[stillp]

The recipe for zimmerit as I've read contains no pine resin, just PVA - but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't mix it up with other types of stuff, especially when applied in field!

40 % Barium sulfate
25 % polyvinyl acetate
15 % pigment
10 % Zinc sulfide
10 % sawdust

Jens, none of those are liquid, so wouldn't make a paste. The ingredients listed in the Haynes manual following extensive research by The Tank Museum are zinc sulphide, barium sulphate, pine sawdust, PVA, pebble dust, ochre, and "pine crystals dissolved in benzene". No proportions are given.

Anyhow, sorry for long OT - Ron's zimmerit still looks fantastic and miles better than my current decal zimmerit!

Yes, I agree, much better than any of the decals or stickers that I've seen.

Pete

[spanner570]

Thanks Pete. I'm pleased you like my attempt at modelling some zimmerit.

[Guest]

Jens, none of those are liquid, so wouldn't make a paste. The ingredients listed in the Haynes manual following extensive research by The Tank Museum are zinc sulphide, barium sulphate, pine sawdust, PVA, pebble dust, ochre, and "pine crystals dissolved in benzene". No proportions are given.
Pete

Polyvinyl acetate is just a fancy word for PVA, thus providing the liquid bonding agent to the zimmerit

What I listed was the "official" ingredients from the zimmerit manufacturer Chemische Werke Zimmer & Co but that doesn't cover for stuff they perhaps mixed in with the goop to stretch the supplies?

[JoeC]

As I understand it the Germans were great advocates of magnetic mines so assumed that everyone else (eventually) would be so devised zimmerit as a defence. An example of the fundamental weakness of Fascist logic.

[stillp]

Polyvinyl acetate is just a fancy word for PVA, thus providing the liquid bonding agent to the zimmerit

What I listed was the "official" ingredients from the zimmerit manufacturer Chemische Werke Zimmer & Co but that doesn't cover for stuff they perhaps mixed in with the goop to stretch the supplies?

They list PVA Jens, not PVA adhesive! PVA is a rubbery solid at normal temperatures.

Pete

[spanner570]

Sorry boys, but this is getting a bit out of hand - and a tad heated!

It started off as a simple question by me as to what members thought of my zimmerit.

This is 'Critique Corner'. Can we leave it as that please.

If you chaps want to discuss the chemical composition, the merits or not of the paste etc., can you please start a new thread away this one?

Thanks.

Ron

[stillp]

Yes, sorry Ron.

Pete

[spanner570]

No need for an apology Pete.

Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, we simply forget which forum category the thread was posted in...... :upside:

We've all done it.....

Cheers.
Ron

[JR]

Nice Ron,
Just checking up , thanks to Jim who pointed me in the right direction, and to your good self sending me here.
Reading about the " real " stuff I will NOT heating it up with a blow lamp. With this heatwave fires at Race Towers have been banned by management.
Yours .
Hot House John