That old debate....

[Del640]

As far as I'm concerned I build replica scale models, mainly from the WWI/II era.

That's military vehicles/aircraft and so on, all with whatever insignia they were adorned with.

It's not a reflection of my views or my thoughts on the varying insignia, but if they displayed a swastika or other upsetting emblem at the time then I'll include it on the build.

It's not a statement, it's history.

Del

[JR]

I think the Swastikas should be there. No need for a kind of censorship to me. Seeing a bf109 or a fw190 without seems odd. But thats the way the world seems to be.
Recently I saw a documentary about f1 in the 80s and 90s. The tobacco advertisements and even alcohol ones were blurred out....I think that's just ridicilous.
And what about hammer and sickle? While in essence communism isn't the same as nazism because it doesnt propagate hate in its ideology, many more people were killed in name of that ideology. Much more than in the name of nazism. Yet the debate is always about the swastika, while that symbol in essence has nothing to do with hate as well. It's connotation in Asia for instance is completely different.
Just my two cents.

I agree about your views Wouter on the Hammer and Sickle. Stalin murdered more than 50 million in the purges, including some of his best engineers, let alone the officers in the army. I love Russian armour, build it for that reason and no other. Its history we are showing.

[mrtintheweb]

If we hide the past we cannot improve the future. IMHO if a builder doesn’t want them they should build something else.
T

[SimonT]

History has happened, both good and bad, so as far as I'm concerned if something/someone existed at a point in time then it existed, whether we like it or not.

I would have no problem with modelling a plane with a swastika on the tail or a truck with an ss numberplate or a race car covered with tobacco and alcohol advertising as that is what it looked like at a moment in time, regardless of what we might think about the rights and wrongs of it now

[Guest]

And what about hammer and sickle? While in essence communism isn't the same as nazism because it doesnt propagate hate in its ideology, many more people were killed in name of that ideology. Much more than in the name of nazism.

Careful, that is a very difficult debate … For one, “in the name of” is already misleading: yes, Stalin had a lot of people killed in the name of communism, but in reality it was because he felt they were a threat to his position and it was nothing inherently to do with communism — whereas German national socialism actively pursued the murder of entire population groups, based purely on ideology. This is quite an important difference if you want to get into why certain symbols are more or less laden than others (though, of course, it won’t make overly much difference to the victims in the end).

Yet the debate is always about the swastika, while that symbol in essence has nothing to do with hate as well. It's connotation in Asia for instance is completely different.

ALL symbols are only what people associate them with. That is entirely the problem: go to, say, India, and I suspect very few people will have any issue at all with you displaying a swastika. Do the same in Germany and you’ll probably very soon be asked by police WTF you think you’re doing (unless it’s clearly anti-Nazi). In the 1980s, the Dukes of Hazard could drive around unmolested, but I somehow suspect they wouldn’t get away with that anymore today (I also suspect some people had issues with that back then too, but not enough to raise their voices about it). And so on.

[Wouter]

Careful, that is a very difficult debate … For one, “in the name of” is already misleading: yes, Stalin had a lot of people killed in the name of communism, but in reality it was because he felt they were a threat to his position and it was nothing inherently to do with communism — whereas German national socialism actively pursued the murder of entire population groups, based purely on ideology. This is quite an important difference if you want to get into why certain symbols are more or less laden than others (though, of course, it won’t make overly much difference to the victims in the end).

Yes that's what I said but that doesn't matter to me,: in the end under the guise of that ideology many many were killed. And don't forget Mao, he was the champion of them all. For me it doesn't matter if it was done based on ideology or not, as you say the outcome is the same. And I agree it's a difficult debate indeed. In the end it all comes down to the same thing which repeats itself over and over. Wether it's in the name of religion, ideology or power. It's clearly that we humans don't really learn from history at all.

Cheers

[BarryW]

Yes that's what I said but that doesn't matter to me,: in the end under the guise of that ideology many many were killed. And don't forget Mao, he was the champion of them all. For me it doesn't matter if it was done based on ideology or not, as you say the outcome is the same. And I agree it's a difficult debate indeed. In the end it all comes down to the same thing which repeats itself over and over. Wether it's in the name of religion, ideology or power. It's clearly that we humans don't really learn from history at all.

Cheers

It is an ideology that has resulted in oppression and murder wherever it has been tried and, in many cases, famine and war. Like Nazism it also has racist undertones as well, Marx, if you have read his works (boring as hell and rather superficial) was without a doubt deeply racist.

I find both Nazism and Communism equally disgusting but that is not a reason, for me, not to include their symbols on scale models of their machines.

[Gary MacKenzie]

My personal opinion is :

Models : yes.

When it comes to statues

Real World Statues of People who were dictators/made money from illegal trades , outdoors : No.
Real World Statues / Full Size Equipment in Museums : Yes ( for educational purposes keep the insignia but explain what it means/what it stood for )

The UK has a few things it should not be proud of. ( as do all countries to a degree, more or less than UK )

[colin m]

Indeed an old debate, but still very valid and well discussed here.
I have a simple question to add, going of on a tangent somewhat. Am I correct in saying the swastika wasn't used on armour ? If not, anyone know why ?

[Tim Marlow]

It was used on air recognition flags Colin, draped over the vehicle. Don’t know why it wasn’t actually on the vehicles though.....

[BarryW]

My personal opinion is :

Models : yes.

When it comes to statues

Real World Statues of People who were dictators/made money from illegal trades , outdoors : No.
Real World Statues / Full Size Equipment in Museums : Yes ( for educational purposes keep the insignia but explain what it means/what it stood for )

The UK has a few things it should not be proud of. ( as do all countries to a degree, more or less than UK )

This is a discussion about the use of symbols of extremist ideology being displayed on models.

I think that shifting to the current hot topic of public statues this is not the right place, it could get politically heated. So far it has been a good well mannered discussion.

[minitnkr]

Amen

[Jon Heptonstall]

Barry.The two issues are directly related though.I don't know anyone who builds models to celebrate any particular ideology so the question of adding swasikas etc. comes down to personal choice with a balance between historical accuracy and what you're comfortable with.
Not so with statues such as the Bristol slaver and even Rhodes where historical accuracy has been carefully cherry-picked and airbrushed.Stick 'em in museums with full descriptions,warts and all.
Jon.

[rtfoe]

It was used on air recognition flags Colin, draped over the vehicle. Don’t know why it wasn’t actually on the vehicles though.....

I think they were on the Afrika Korp emblem...I know because mine was deleted so I had to get a stencil to add it on.

Cheers,
Richard.

[spanner570]

This is a discussion about the use of symbols of extremist ideology being displayed on models.

....so far it has been a good well mannered discussion.

Barry, I hope it stays thus....