I see another attempt to divert this thread. I will not bite.
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History should never be hidden or disregarded, but it's important to remember that what we regard as the truth is someones' 'take' on events, often the victor's or at least one with a vested interest in telling the story in a way that suits their personal outlook. It is important to regard history with hindsight and absolutely necessary that modern values are applied to re-assess the past, assuming those values have changed for the general good. Julius Caesar's 'Conquest of Gaul' is one long tale of self glory to the denigration of a vibrant Gallic culture that was completely destroyed, a virtual genocide, yet the Roman's are still admired as the purveyors of 'civilising' values.
As for the swastika, if it was used on aircraft and vehicles, then it existed and if you chose to model those things, then it must be shown. Where would a Roman standard be without it's SPQR? As others have said it would be doing a disservice to those that suffered under it's imprint to delete it from history. It's also important to remember that the swastika was an ancient symbol of divinity and good luck in numerous ancient cultures:
[ATTACH alt="download (55).jpg"]390572[/ATTACH][ATTACH alt="download (54).jpg"]390574[/ATTACH]
The meaning of the symbol has been ruined for us by it's use by the Nazis and it's probably impossible now to reclaim it for it's original intention. Only the far future will tell how hindsight deals with the legacy - we're still too close to events now not to make unsavoury associations.Comment
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Good one Barry.
Start a debate then "refuse to bite".
Jon.Comment
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Right back to Barry's initial question in his first post.
Some will and some won't - that's clear. As modellers we should remember that including a swastika does not in any way indicate sympathy for nazi doctrine but is an issue of historical accuracy. Those who choose not to include it do so, I'm sure, to avoid any offence to viewers of their model. Those who do and those who do not should respect each others viewpoint.
While Googling this subject I found this. It was in the Personal Development Curriculum for use in Secondary Schools.
Two friends, a Jew and a Hindu, went into a building and saw displayed a large swastika. The Jew was moved to tears of sadness by this symbol of hate and the Hindu was moved to tears of joy by this symbol of hope.
JimComment
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I'm broadly with Del back at post #16.
I go to some lengths to make my models as accurate as I can, and in the case of German aircraft from the Nazi era that includes swastikas, as per the orders of the day. I'm representing a historic aircraft, it doesn't mean that I support or have any sympathy for the regime which the swastika represents.
If someone has an issue with the swastika, then of course they shouldn't put it on their model. I respect their decision and I don't think any the less of a model which doesn't have swastikas applied. I've always been a believer that everyone should build their models the way they want, and have fun doing it. On the other hand, I expect my decision to apply them to my model to be respected too.
In the unlikely event that I was going to publicly display a model where the rules or even laws forbid swastikas I would happily cover them up. The stupidity in that is simply that it would be obvious that's what had happened, but it's not a hill I'm going to die on.
Whatever makes you happy.Comment
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I have a feeling that this whole discussion is a little pointless, though, because it’s really preaching to the choir given where it’s held. Indeed, I suspect that even if you were to start a discussion like this on a German modelling forum, you would get much the same opinion as has been expressed in pretty much every post above: “I would put it onto a model if the real thing had it, not because I support national socialism but because it was on the real thing.”
I find bleeping out “bad” words on TV, in songs etc. silly for the same reason — everybody over the age of about 12 knows what they’re saying, but for some reason, they’re not allowed to hear it. If the language offends you, don’t watch the show or play the song … But that’s a diversion, and not really the same as German law forbidding the display of certain symbology in any case
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As I suspected would happen, I see it's slipped into being a bit of personal, if only briefly - Be aware, this thread is being monitored very closely.Comment
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Can I join in ?Comment
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Yes, and German law is German law. If I displayed a model in Germany I would be sure to remain within German law. Whether I think that the law is right or wrong has nothing to do with it. That is a matter for the German people and there are surely blindingly obvious reasons why the laws were made. They live in a democracy, if they want to change it they can, until then I will respect it. All the Germans I know see this as a non-issue, so don't hold your breath.
I would just ask, how silly is putting multi part decals on a decal sheet to make swastikas in order to side step the law in the various territories that forbid the symbol? Just leave them out. If people want them there are plenty of options available. I've got sheets of the bl88dy things in sizes I won't use!Comment
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“But there are people who don’t know Those exist!”
“But then we get complaints that they’re not in the kit!”
Etc.
Etc.
They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t, I would say: If manufacturers don’t include swastikas, they get complaints about them being missing, if they do, they run the risk of their kits falling foul of some countries’ laws. And modelmaking is a niche enough hobby that the law is rather unlikely to get changed to include exemptions for models of historical subjects that are clearly not made to glorify national-socialism.
Something else I realised earlier tonight: SS runes and wolfsangel divisional markings don’t appear to cause this problem with decals. Probably because they’re a lot less recognisable to the general public.Comment
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My father was in the Royal Navy before the war even started ,why ,you asked him he would have told you three meals a day ,a tot of what he called pussers and clothes on his back ,saw his friends killed was quite badly injured towards the end to the extent him and mum didn't even know wether they would be able to have children (as it happened there's four of us ) but as a kid making kits he would have been the first to say that this is wrong or that the swastikas were missing he just saw it as it was ,but I do know in his last years he would watch the news and ask , look at it now was it worth it. I though don't feel comfortable with the piper Whitman tiger tank in some cases almost worship they were fully paid up members of a rotten regime but that is just me don't let me stop you ,then again are people that narrow minded they tend to ignore the Russians rapeing their way across Germany condemning thousands?of their own to death camps ,or what about the Japanese to treat human beings the way they did makes them as bad if not worse than the rest but you wouldn't build a zero without any markings. There's very few of that generation left now let us not forget them but history cannot be changed it happened in the past . Please making a scale model shouldn't come to this it is what it is a replica of something from our past.Comment
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You can't and should wipe symbols from history or discussion. We would end up with empty history books. Its right they are still fitted to models. Its not wrong to recreate an aircraft as it was. Its reality and celebrates nothing. Same with the confederate flag IMO. Make it illegal to display it, I get that, but dont avoid it in debate or history. It existed and should not be hidden from history.
I suggest to the snowflakes and woke, not aimed at people here, they read White Gold by Gill Milton. eye opening and exposes the hypocracy of many of the current activists. In fact all should read it. Its a fascinating slice of history that needs a wider audienceComment
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I just have to comment that intellectualizing or historically justifying the display of symbolism may assuage certain consciences. Historical accuracy is not the relevant measure. the question is if an ideological abomination has pretty, or cool, technology or uniforms why do you choose to model them?
In addition the fact that a certain symbol has historical roots that are acceptable is also irrelevant. What counts is how that symbol is perceived today. If you find historical accuracy cool go for it but don't delude yourself into trying to justify the symbols.
JohnComment
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Who the heck is trying to "justify" anything. Symbols don't have roots that are acceptable, thats a daft assertion John. That they have roots is an interesting and historical facts. Key word here is fact. We should study Nazism for what it is. Not what is represents in a modern setting and viewpoint. Its history, you cant and shouldn't ignore it. How about the "intellectualising" out of history rather than understanding the historical relevence and learning from it. Historical accuracy is the relevent measure and is everything. What you do with that information is absolute key. Ignoring an "ideological abomination" is both subjective, opinionated and displays incredible patronising arrogance. Also a severe form of cowardice in facing up to our mistakes as humans and ensuring we act on them. If we dont teach them read about them and If we do nothing but erase them from debate, hello BLM, and treat everyone who reads about them as some sort of untouchable then we are doomed. Airbrushing a swastika out of a painting, model or show is Maoist at best. His mantra was to erase history that he didn't agree with. There are many declaring the same rational to justify the new "wokeness". Run away and hide. Modeling is not evangelisng any nasty and vile regimes. Its just a hobby for gods sake and accuracy is important to many. What next, build nothing greek or roman as heaven knows they were right ba*tards when it came to slavery, persecution of minorities and genocide as well. Ditto fro one of my boyhood heroes, Chaka Zulu. Great warrior he may be but he also massacred his enemies man, woman and child. Captured many and sold them into slavery. You won't see that mentioned on the BBC. It's all one way, give a knee and tug the forelock to any marxist activist group rather than take part in balanced non hysterical, non preprepared rants. Everyone knows the Nazis were the bad guys their symbols in films and even modelling are just that symbols. They cant hurt you but if anything they remind us of what horrors those people took part in. Same for the Japanese yet we paint red roundels on their aircraft models. My father law told horror stories of fighting the Japanese in Burma. They routinely removed genitals from captured soldiers just enough to keep the alive then nailed them to trees in full view. Yet we still eat in Japanese restaurants and buy their art despite some of it symbolising the mantra of made them do that. Why ? Because we understand that was then and this is now.Nazi's, slavery, Japanese torture and rape, Roman burning alive of whole villages, Greek slaves. All history but all important to know. Again wipe this stuff from our lives is to insult those that died and is ignorance of the highest order that George Orwell in his novel 1984 would have recognised as utopia
Why should I or anyone apologise for slavery or the swastika. I suggest you read some history books, probably some you would have banned, and discover, for instance how some of the biggest slavers were in fact African tribes, slavery is still going on and practiced throughout the world. And that Nazi belief still exists in some countries but we recognise it and can push it away. Tearing down statues rather than label them with all the facts, good and bad is not the way to go. Half witted snowflakes with their pathetic safe zones wouldn't know how to defend their country from the Nazis.They have no spine, experience of the real world and a basic understanding of history and it's impact and context.
Apologies.... I studied History ancient and modern..... I get excited...sorry again :flushed:Comment
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