Acrylic thinners

[Guest]

Hi all,

Just a quick one for the brainy ones here:bow:

In the very distant past I used to paint with enamels.....And used white spirit to clean brushes and to thin down paint.....

Now with the huge range of modern acrylic paints on the market, and the fact that I have returned to model making, I am at a lose on using certain "thinners" and "acrylics"

So..............

Can I use Tamiya acrylic thinners with Humbrol acrylic paint in a air-brush ?

Can I use Tamiya thinners with Vallejo acrylics in an air-brush ?

With out any adverse effects

I look forward to the barrage of replys

[Guest]

This is one of those areas of many differring opinions and I'm sure all will feel as strong as each other.

For my own part, and I have now been modelling for well over fourty years, my preference is to always use the correct manufacturers thinners for thier own paints. That way you know it is compatable and you won't have any problems.

Using anything else can sometimes involve a small degree of risk which I am not prepared to take with a model that I have invested many hours into. So even though manufactuer "A" may be OK with manufacturer "B" but only if it isn't painted over the top of manufacturer "C" etc...etc.... I can't be bothered and just use the right stuff!!

[Guest]

could not agree more with Bunkerbarge on this on simply stick to one amke and you will not go wrong.The paint manufacters spend thousands developing their products so why do we insist on muckingthem up etc

Stavros

[Guest]

Yep mate gotta agree with Bunker stick with paint manufactuer own thinners as they put different additives in their own products

you might get away with Windsreen washer fluid if your very stuck but try it on some scrap first

[Guest]

Whilst on the subject of acrylic thinners,I am a great fan of Tamiya acrylic paints as I find them very forgiving.However there seems to be huge shortage of their acrylic thinners on the market at the moment.

Does anyone know the reason for this? and/or do they know where to purchase some.I am particularly looking for the 250mm bottles.

Murray

[Guest]

Murry..

search the bay of fleas...(e-bay)... i just spotted some for around 17 quid....however only a few days ago i read that 'windscreen washer fluid'..(the blue stuff from halfords)..is o.k. to thin tamiya..and most other acrylics down with......

apparently it has to have isopropyl alcohol in it .......

anybody tried this

here ya go..here's the atricle i read..(p.s. these are not my words, somebody else wrote them so therefore all credit must go to him ..not me..)

THINNING PAINT FOR AIRBRUSHING

The question "What is the exact thinning ratio when using XYZ paint in an airbrush", or some derivative thereof, comes up frequently so I thought I'd try and provide a comprehensive answer once and for all.



Short Answer Number 1 - There is no such thing as an exact thinning ratio for any paint. A particular manufacturer's paints will vary from one lot to another and even from one color to another. Additionally, what worked with a bottle of paint today may not work a month from now when it has had some time to thicken in the bottle.



Short Answer Number 2 - It really doesn't matter anyway. Asking about an “Exact Thinning Ratio” is similar to asking how much cream to put in coffee or how much oil to put in a car. You use enough to do what you want but no more.



There are four things that affect how much paint should be thinned:

1. The construction and type of airbrush. Some airbrushes atomize or pick up paint properly at lower pressures than other airbrushes. Siphon feed airbrushes usually need slightly more air pressure to feed reliably than gravity feed brushes will. Internal mix airbrushes will generally atomize paint better at lower pressures than external mix airbrushes will. This factor also includes the size of the nozzle and needle in the airbrush. Some airbrushes have tip assemblies or separate nozzles and / or needles that can be changed, some have a single combination.
   
2. The viscosity, or thickness, of the paint. If you try and suck molasses through a soda straw you are going to have a much harder time than you would sucking water through the same straw. Many people think this is the only reason for thinning paint, but it isn't.
   
3. The volume and pressure of air through the airbrush. Given enough pressure and volume you can get molasses through a soda straw, but it takes quite a bit.
   
4. The distance between the airbrush tip and the surface of the model.
   

You cannot change the basic construction of the airbrush, other than perhaps changing the nozzle and needle, but you can change any of the other three factors. To complicate matters, these factors frequently change while you are painting. The thinner in your paint will evaporate causing it to be more thick, you will move your hand closer to or farther from the model's surface, or your air pressure may change because of temperature changes or when the motor cuts on and off.



For these reasons, asking what an exact thinning ratio someone else is using may or may not work for you.



In my opinion there is only one reason to thin paint for airbrushing, and that is to lower the viscosity so that the airbrush can atomize the paint properly. Given this, if the paint is already spraying properly and it is covering the model properly then there is no reason to thin it. If not, thin the paint more or increase the pressure. If it sprays properly right from the bottle then there is no reason to thin it at all. If it's too thin right from the bottle, reduce the pressure and get close to the surface.



My advice is to pick a pressure that you want to use for painting and then thin the paint enough so that it atomizes and flows through the airbrush properly and covers the surface well at that pressure. If you are spraying a large area with a single color, such as the main color of a car, tank, airplane, or ship, then you can use a relatively high pressure (say 20 psi), leave your paint somewhat thicker, and get good coverage with each pass of the airbrush. If you are painting a critical area, such as the demarcation between two camouflage colors, you will have to reduce your pressure dramatically to prevent overspray from causing a wide line. When you reduce the pressure you are going to have to thin the paint more to get it to flow. You will additionally need to get much closer to the surface which in turn requires slightly thicker paint to prevent the air pressure from the airbrush from blowing it around. The bottom line is that YOU will have to find what works for YOU under specific circumstances.



I use Thayer and Chandler airbrushes, and for general coverage I usually start with a 3:1 ratio (3 parts paint to 1 part thinner), I spray at around 15 psi, and about 3 - 4" from the model's surface. For camouflage painting I reduce the pressure to about 8 to 10 psi, increase the thinning to approximately 1:1, and spray about ½" from the model's surface. Trying to use the same settings for camouflage as I use for general coverage would completely eliminate any chance of getting a thin division line between the colors. At the same time, trying to use the same settings for general coverage as I use for camouflage would require many, many passes and many coats of paint to get any kind of decent coverage.



On a related note, the nozzle on your airbrush will have a big affect on paint flow and how well things work in general. Many people think that a fine tip automatically means a fine line, and that isn't always the case. Many fine tip assemblies (or individual nozzle / needle combinations) were designed for very thin mediums such as ink. The paints that we use for models, even when dramatically thinned, are much thicker than ink and in many cases will not properly flow through fine nozzles even with a lot of pressure. The particles of pigment are just too large for the nozzle. If you are having to use an excessive amount of pressure or are having to dramatically thin your paint then your nozzle is probably too small.



Another common question that comes up is what to use to thin paint. The best answer to that is to

use what the paint manufacturer recommends

. Read the labels (assuming that you can understand the language they are written in since they are frequently in Japanese!), and notice what the manufacturer recommends. The reducer or thinner recommended by the manufacturer is usually the best way to go, but if cost is an issue there are usually less expensive alternatives.



In general there are three types of paint for models. This is what I use to thin them. Your results may vary and you should ALWAYS test on some scrap before spraying your model.

• ACRYLICS
  
  -- Acrylics for model use are usually water-soluble. In many cases you can use just plain water to thin them, and in fact this is what PollyScale recommends for their acrylics. Other alternatives are Windex, automotive windshield cleaner or isopropyl alcohol. I usually use isopropyl alcohol, however this causes a couple of side affects that you should be aware of:
  
  1. It causes acrylics to dry just a little bit quicker. Since they already dry so fast that they frequently cause "Tip Dry" on airbrushes, this just compounds the problem. I always add a couple of drops of acrylic retarder to my paint cup to slow the drying time down.
     
  2. In the case of Tamiya acrylics isopropyl alcohol will cause glossy paint to dry with a flat finish.
     
  
  Acrylic retarder is a very handy addition for anyone who uses acrylics. It is available at most art supply stores and is manufactured by numerous companies including Createx, Golden, and others. Adding a couple of drops to your paint cup will dramatically slow down the drying time of acrylic which helps with the problem of "Tip Dry" (dried paint accumulating on the tip of your airbrush) and also allows the paint to flow and level out before it dries. I don't paint with a regular brush much at all, in fact about all I use a brush for is for detailing cockpits, but when I do use acrylics for brush painting I thin it with Createx acrylic retarder and nothing else. One drop of retarder for each 5 or so drops of paint makes for a nice thin mix that flows well and does not dry nearly as fast.
  
  
  

• ENAMEL
  
  -- For enamels I use plain mineral spirits. It is available at virtually any hardware store that sells painting supplies.
  

• LAQUER
  
  -- For laquers I use laquer thinner. It is available at virtually any hardware store that sells painting supplies.
  

IMPORTANT!!!

When using something for thinning that you have not used before you should always, ALWAYS try it first on some scrap or something that is not important. If it does not do what you want it is much better to find out on something that doesn't matter than finding out by ruining a paint job you have put a lot of effort into.

[stona]

Everything above seems good advice. I use various acrylics from time to time and thin either with water (not distilled but I live in Birmingham with lovely soft water, from Wales, on tap) or Iso propyl alcohol (IPA). You need to experiment to see what works with what.For example IPA and Xtracrylix certainly did not work for me!

I have a friend who swears by thinning acrylic paints with Klear floor polish ("Pledge with future shine" for our friends accross the pond). Never got around to trying it myself but his results look just fine.

Steve

[Guest]

acrylic paints

Murry..search the bay of fleas...(e-bay)... i just spotted some for around 17 quid....however only a few days ago i read that 'windscreen washer fluid'..(the blue stuff from halfords)..is o.k. to thin tamiya..and most other acrylics down with......

apparently it has to have isopropyl alcohol in it .......

anybody tried this

here ya go..here's the atricle i read..(p.s. these are not my words, somebody else wrote them so therefore all credit must go to him ..not me..)

THINNING PAINT FOR AIRBRUSHING

The question "What is the exact thinning ratio when using XYZ paint in an airbrush", or some derivative thereof, comes up frequently so I thought I'd try and provide a comprehensive answer once and for all.



Short Answer Number 1 - There is no such thing as an exact thinning ratio for any paint. A particular manufacturer's paints will vary from one lot to another and even from one color to another. Additionally, what worked with a bottle of paint today may not work a month from now when it has had some time to thicken in the bottle.



Short Answer Number 2 - It really doesn't matter anyway. Asking about an “Exact Thinning Ratio” is similar to asking how much cream to put in coffee or how much oil to put in a car. You use enough to do what you want but no more.



There are four things that affect how much paint should be thinned:

1. The construction and type of airbrush. Some airbrushes atomize or pick up paint properly at lower pressures than other airbrushes. Siphon feed airbrushes usually need slightly more air pressure to feed reliably than gravity feed brushes will. Internal mix airbrushes will generally atomize paint better at lower pressures than external mix airbrushes will. This factor also includes the size of the nozzle and needle in the airbrush. Some airbrushes have tip assemblies or separate nozzles and / or needles that can be changed, some have a single combination.
   
2. The viscosity, or thickness, of the paint. If you try and suck molasses through a soda straw you are going to have a much harder time than you would sucking water through the same straw. Many people think this is the only reason for thinning paint, but it isn't.
   
3. The volume and pressure of air through the airbrush. Given enough pressure and volume you can get molasses through a soda straw, but it takes quite a bit.
   
4. The distance between the airbrush tip and the surface of the model.
   

You cannot change the basic construction of the airbrush, other than perhaps changing the nozzle and needle, but you can change any of the other three factors. To complicate matters, these factors frequently change while you are painting. The thinner in your paint will evaporate causing it to be more thick, you will move your hand closer to or farther from the model's surface, or your air pressure may change because of temperature changes or when the motor cuts on and off.



For these reasons, asking what an exact thinning ratio someone else is using may or may not work for you.



In my opinion there is only one reason to thin paint for airbrushing, and that is to lower the viscosity so that the airbrush can atomize the paint properly. Given this, if the paint is already spraying properly and it is covering the model properly then there is no reason to thin it. If not, thin the paint more or increase the pressure. If it sprays properly right from the bottle then there is no reason to thin it at all. If it's too thin right from the bottle, reduce the pressure and get close to the surface.



My advice is to pick a pressure that you want to use for painting and then thin the paint enough so that it atomizes and flows through the airbrush properly and covers the surface well at that pressure. If you are spraying a large area with a single color, such as the main color of a car, tank, airplane, or ship, then you can use a relatively high pressure (say 20 psi), leave your paint somewhat thicker, and get good coverage with each pass of the airbrush. If you are painting a critical area, such as the demarcation between two camouflage colors, you will have to reduce your pressure dramatically to prevent overspray from causing a wide line. When you reduce the pressure you are going to have to thin the paint more to get it to flow. You will additionally need to get much closer to the surface which in turn requires slightly thicker paint to prevent the air pressure from the airbrush from blowing it around. The bottom line is that YOU will have to find what works for YOU under specific circumstances.



I use Thayer and Chandler airbrushes, and for general coverage I usually start with a 3:1 ratio (3 parts paint to 1 part thinner), I spray at around 15 psi, and about 3 - 4" from the model's surface. For camouflage painting I reduce the pressure to about 8 to 10 psi, increase the thinning to approximately 1:1, and spray about ½" from the model's surface. Trying to use the same settings for camouflage as I use for general coverage would completely eliminate any chance of getting a thin division line between the colors. At the same time, trying to use the same settings for general coverage as I use for camouflage would require many, many passes and many coats of paint to get any kind of decent coverage.



On a related note, the nozzle on your airbrush will have a big affect on paint flow and how well things work in general. Many people think that a fine tip automatically means a fine line, and that isn't always the case. Many fine tip assemblies (or individual nozzle / needle combinations) were designed for very thin mediums such as ink. The paints that we use for models, even when dramatically thinned, are much thicker than ink and in many cases will not properly flow through fine nozzles even with a lot of pressure. The particles of pigment are just too large for the nozzle. If you are having to use an excessive amount of pressure or are having to dramatically thin your paint then your nozzle is probably too small.



Another common question that comes up is what to use to thin paint. The best answer to that is to

use what the paint manufacturer recommends

. Read the labels (assuming that you can understand the language they are written in since they are frequently in Japanese!), and notice what the manufacturer recommends. The reducer or thinner recommended by the manufacturer is usually the best way to go, but if cost is an issue there are usually less expensive alternatives.



In general there are three types of paint for models. This is what I use to thin them. Your results may vary and you should ALWAYS test on some scrap before spraying your model.

• ACRYLICS
  
  -- Acrylics for model use are usually water-soluble. In many cases you can use just plain water to thin them, and in fact this is what PollyScale recommends for their acrylics. Other alternatives are Windex, automotive windshield cleaner or isopropyl alcohol. I usually use isopropyl alcohol, however this causes a couple of side affects that you should be aware of:
  
  1. It causes acrylics to dry just a little bit quicker. Since they already dry so fast that they frequently cause "Tip Dry" on airbrushes, this just compounds the problem. I always add a couple of drops of acrylic retarder to my paint cup to slow the drying time down.
     
  2. In the case of Tamiya acrylics isopropyl alcohol will cause glossy paint to dry with a flat finish.
     
  
  Acrylic retarder is a very handy addition for anyone who uses acrylics. It is available at most art supply stores and is manufactured by numerous companies including Createx, Golden, and others. Adding a couple of drops to your paint cup will dramatically slow down the drying time of acrylic which helps with the problem of "Tip Dry" (dried paint accumulating on the tip of your airbrush) and also allows the paint to flow and level out before it dries. I don't paint with a regular brush much at all, in fact about all I use a brush for is for detailing cockpits, but when I do use acrylics for brush painting I thin it with Createx acrylic retarder and nothing else. One drop of retarder for each 5 or so drops of paint makes for a nice thin mix that flows well and does not dry nearly as fast.
  
  
  

• ENAMEL
  
  -- For enamels I use plain mineral spirits. It is available at virtually any hardware store that sells painting supplies.
  

• LAQUER
  
  -- For laquers I use laquer thinner. It is available at virtually any hardware store that sells painting supplies.
  

IMPORTANT!!!

When using something for thinning that you have not used before you should always, ALWAYS try it first on some scrap or something that is not important. If it does not do what you want it is much better to find out on something that doesn't matter than finding out by ruining a paint job you have put a lot of effort into.

Langy,

Many thanks for this information,sorry for the delay in replying.I only have time to look on the site every now and again,wish I could spend more time doing so but not enough hours in a day.

Murray.

[Guest]

i use pink nail polish remover, since tamiya pulled the 450 ml thinner of the shelf i could not find an inexpensive substitute. i searched the net and the debate i came across was isopropanol alcohol or pink nail polish remover? i tried both alcohol dries too fast and does not allow the paint to stick to the model too well. where as pink nail polish remover grabs the model well. i tried clear polish remover but it cloggs the airbrush so thats a no no..... as far as im aware the polish remover is excellent for tamiya, warhammer and valejo paints. give it a try. its around 60p for 250 ml, all the best

[Guest]

I use Vallejo thinner for their acrylics, for the simple reason that it contains acrylic resin, so it thins the paint without affecting its ability to stick to the model.

[Guest]

you could also use 'surgical spirits'...the stuff used for hardening the skin on your feet...(old squaddie trick there..lol)..

i tried it a couple of days ago and i'm toally impressed with the results....point to note thoough is that it tends to make gloss dry matt.....but above all else....it's as cheap as chips..(lol) ... about £2.00 for a large bottle from the chemists

[Guest]

Is there another name for 'surgical spirits'?

[Guest]

Acrylic Primer Removal.

Got a bit of a problem here. Acidip and primer sprayed my portholes then used acrylic car paint to give the colour i wanted. Now I want to removes the paint as I can't get the glazing in for the paint thickness. Managed to remove the top spray with cellulose thinners, have difficultly in removing the primer. Tried paint stripper,turps,more cellulose thinners but it won't come of . The portholes are brass. Assistance please. I haven't tried Acrylic thinners as there hard to get.