Higgins 78

[Guest]

Hi all,

I am new here and to modelling to scale, so please treat me like the fool that I am!:grinball2:

I have inherited a MTB that I think was built about thirty years ago. It has the serial number of PT201 on the hull so I am presuming it is a Higgins 78.

I would like to restore it to it's intended likeness. However I am having difficulty finding pictures of a similar vessel. I believe this boat served in the Med for the Royal Navy, according to "PT Boats Inc", most likely around Gibralter.

The boat is approximately 40 inches long making it 1:24 scale, but it is 11 inches wide. Too wide to be exact scale. I may be measuring in the wrong places though, or it could be that the original builder used an existing model and converted it. It is an all wood construction except for minor deck fittings. It has an enormous electric motor and what looks like an old bakelite light switch to cut power. It looks like it has never had radio gear in it, understandable considering it's age. A lot of the deck furnishings have been broken or come adrift.

Any help to finding images of this or similar boats that would give me some idea as to how it was laid out on deck would be most appreciated. I wouldn't mind changing it's designation to a sister ship if necessary, but would prefer to keep it's identity if possible.

What colours would these boats have been as mine has faded to a yellow? :washing:

Many thanks!

Terry

[Guest]

Howdy Terry,

First, welcome to the forum, we are glad to have ya here.

Ok, now boats are not my strong point, especially RC or model boats, I own two small aluminum fishing boats and thats about the extent of my knowledge. However, i am assuming MTB= Main Torpedo boat, and also i assume the Higgins 78' means a 78 footer bye higgins.

Ok, now again assuming I am following right along, I went to google images, did a couple searches, and found this link to wood carved models of pt boats: All Wood Wings: 80' ELCO PT Boat - quality ship models crafted from wood

Now a little ways down the page, it lists the following:

78' HIGGINS

- 162 boats built -

PT-71 to PT-94 (24)

PT-197 to PT-254 (59)

PT-265 to PT-313 (49)

PT-625 to PT-660 (30)

A little further down the page it lists the following information:

HIGGINS 78'

Displacement: 43 tons / Beam: 19'11" / Draft: 5'3" / Speed: 41 knots / three Packard gasoline engines, triple screws; 1,200 hp

Armament: 4 21" Mk XIII torpedoes; 2 20mm; 1 40mm

Complement: 17

PT-1971943Transferred to USSR PT-2271943Destroyed after war's endPT-1981943Transferred to USSR PT-2281943Sold 1946PT-1991943Destroyed after war's end PT-2291943Sold 1946PT-2001943 22 Feb 44; collision off Newport, Rhode Island PT-2301943Destroyed after war's end PT-201 1943Transferred to UK PT-2311943Sold 1946PT-2021943 16 Aug 44; hit mine Point Aygulf, France PT-2321943Sold 1946PT-2031943Transferred to UK PT-2331943Destroyed after war's endPT-2041943Transferred to UK PT-2341943Sold 1946PT-2051943Transferred to UK PT-2351943Destroyed after war's endPT-2061943Transferred to UK PT-2361943Sold 1946PT-2071943Transferred to UK PT-2371943Sold 1946PT-2081943Transferred to UK PT-2381943Sold 1946PT-2091943Transferred to UK PT-2381943Sold 1946PT-2001943Transferred to UK PT-2391943 14 Dec 43; fire, SolomonsPT-2111943Transferred to UK PT-2401943Sold 1946PT-2121943Transferred to UK PT-2411943Destroyed after war's endPT-2131943Transferred to UK PT-2421943Destroyed after war's endPT-2141943Transferred to UK PT-2431943Destroyed after war's endPT-2151943Transferred to UK PT-2441943Destroyed after war's endPT-2161943Transferred to UK PT-2451943Sold 1946PT-2171943Transferred to UK PT-2461943Destroyed after war's endPT-2181943 16 Aug 44; hit mine Point Aygulf, France PT-2471943 5 May 44, shore batteries Cape TorokinaPT-2191943 Sep 43; foundered at Attu during storm PT-2481943 Destroyed after war's endPT-2201943Destroyed after war's end PT-2491943Sold 1946PT-2211943Destroyed after war's end PT-2501943Sold 1946PT-2221943Destroyed after war's end PT-2511943 26 Feb 44, shore batteries Sio, New GuineaPT-2231943Destroyed after war's end PT-2521943Destroyed after war's endPT-2241943Sold 1946 PT-2531943Sold 1946PT-2251943Destroyed after war's end PT-2541943Sold 1946PT-2261943Sold 1946

Now i dont know if this will be of any help to you or not, but i thought i would let you look at it and decide for yourself. There are photos of a completed model on the site but i am not sure what the boat shown is.

Anyway, maybe you could contact this company for more paint schemes or maybe they could send you a photo of one of their completed higgins 78' boats.

I hope this helps and again, welcome to the forum,

Greg aka GEEDUBBYA (GW)

[Guest]

Thanks Greg.

That is an interesting site and lovely looking model.

I think most of what is posted above from the "Allwoodwings.com" site I have, but it is nice to get it confirmed.

MTB is Motor Torpedo Boat, a British term meaning the same as PT (Patrol Torpedo) in America.

This is quite a learning experience for me as before this last week I didn't know there ware so many varieties or makers of Torpedo Boats, let alone load-outs and configurations.

I was under the naive assumption that I could find some pictures of my boat or at least one similar and get on with it.:shhhh:

Maybe a potted history of what I have learnt might help!:blahblah:

Apparently a British MTB was brought from the UK and shipped to the USA during the early stages of WW2 for trials and research. The design was liked but considered too small at about 70 foot long due to American torpedoes being longer than the British counterpart. A competition was set up for a similar type of vessel and all three contestants were given contracts of varying amounts depending on favourability. Elco "80 foot" had the lions share, then Higgins "78 foot" and finally Huckins "not sure of length". Each make had their differences in length and deck shape, hence the need to find a similar vessel from that maker. I don't know enough to be able to tell the differences yet.

I know that PT201 was a British serving vessel in the Mediterranean.

That, I think, sums up my knowledge so far!:emo10:

I know Google is your friend, but I keep forgetting to use the images there. Doh!

Busy looking through it now.

Anyway thanks so far. Any and all help received gratefully.

I have ordered a couple of books from Amazon that might help hopefully.

British Motor Torpedo Boat 1939-45; Angus Konstam.

Flag 4: The Battle of Coastal Forces in the Mediterranean 1939-1945; Dudley Pope.

Any other book recommendations?

PS; I have added some photos of my boat.

[Guest]

Hiya Spyder, I had an hour to spare and got interested, sadly this is all I've come up with.

Of most interest is that your PT201 became RN MGB 181. (not got time to look any further as my "turn" on MY P.C. is over!!?!)

Higgins Ind New Orleans,LA 78'

PT 201 Laid down:- 6/30/42 Launched:- 10/03/42 Completed 1/20/43

Fate:- RN MGB 181

PT-201

• PT-200 class Motor Torpedo Boat:
  
• Displacement: 43 tons
  
• Length: 78'
  
• Beam: 19'11"
  
• Draft: 5'3"
  
• Speed: 41 knots
  
• Armament: 4 21" Mk XIII torpedoes; 2 20mm; 1 40mm
  
• Complement: 17
  
• 3 Packard gasoline engines, triple screws; 1,200 hp
  
• Built at ___ and commissioned 1942-45
  
• Transferred to UK

[Guest]

Hi Gaz.

Hmm, I had seen that PT201 became MGB 181. That is what is confusing me. I have found no reference of a MGB 181 under British serving vessels so far.

It also seems to have an incredibly short life of about 3 months. Surely that would be the delivery time. Did it serve as an American PT boat and was then transferred or was it built and delivered as such?

I am wondering if the "Fate" date is really it's date of transfer over to the RN!?

Also if it became MGB 181 it would not have had torpedoes.

Is it a simple typo or did it change commissions!?

It seems the more I find out the less I really know!:sobbing:

Or do I have a Bitsa?

A bits of this and bits of that boat!

Now I have the bit between my teeth I am determined to find out more, whichever way it turns. Beginning to look like I may have to change it's registration.

Ah well, C'est La Vie!

Oh yes I know what you mean about time limits! I have four kids and so get rationed time as well, especially whilst they are on holiday.

[Guest]

Howdy terry,

Well, it may be a typo, but its for certain that the number was changed when it was delivered to the UK because I found MTB-201 on a site which said:

MTB No.201 (38t, 27/11/41) sunk in action with surface craft, Dover Straits, English Channel, June 15, 1942

As you can see, that particular boat was in the wrong place and sunk long before the boat we are looking for. I found this information here:

British naval vessels lost at sea in World War 2 - La Combattante to Myrtle

However I could not find MGB-181 or MTB-181 on that site.

So, as they say in cheap detective novels........"The Plot thickens"

I will keep looking as time permits, have a good day,

Greg

[Guest]

Its me again,

quick update, I have started searching sites in foriegn languages, here is one: USA - Torpédové Äluny - TYP Higgins 78' - VáleÄné lodÄ› 1900-1950

Scrolling down to PT-201, there is a little british flag on the right side of the page with MBT-181 also, clicking it, I am taken to this Site:

USS PT 201, HMS MGB 181, CJMN MT 1-8 - VáleÄné lodÄ› 1900-1950

OK what i can gather from this site is that this entire page must be about the PT-201/mgb-181 and if you will look at the bottom of the page there is a listing of CJMN-MT1-8.

Now there is a small flag there above that CJMN MT 1-8 which I dont recognize. Since this boat was passed to the UK from the US, could it be that the boat was passed from the UK to some other country?

CJMN MT 1-8 < now if you can find out what country that flag is from, you might be able to solve this riddle.

I hope this helps,

have a good day,

Greg

ADDENDUM: apparently jug (when you click on the flag) is meant to be "YUG" for yugoslavia, you might look to see if the above mentioned CJMN MT 1-8 can be found in yugoslavian naval records lol.

[Guest]

Its me once more,

Ok, MGB-181 was infact transferred to the Yugoslavian navy (see here: Yugoslavia - Motor torpedo boats - type LÃœRSEN - Warships 1900-1950 )

Abit of its history is found here on that site also......

28.01.1944 damaged off Anzio mistakenly by USS Sway (AM 120)

transferred to - MGB 181

08.1945 transferred to Yugoslavia

However, it does not show this boat as being "LOST" by the Yugoslav navy, or even decommissioned.

I also found this site: uboat.net - Allied Warships - Motor torpedo boat USS PT 201 of the Higgins 78' class

which says:

NavyThe US NavyTypeMotor torpedo boatClassHiggins 78' Pennant Built byHiggins Industies (New Orleans, Louisiana, U.S.A.) Ordered Laid down30 Jun, 1942 Launched3 Oct, 1942 Commissioned20 Jan, 1943 End service, 1944 Loss position HistoryTransferred to the Royal Navy in 1944 being renamed MGB 181.

Transferred by the British to Yugoslavia in August 1945.

I then searched google for Yugoslavian motor torpedo boats and found this site: http://www.lutonmodelboat.co.uk/history_ptboats.html

and on that site this photo of a higgins 78' pt boat in the med.



PT-211 tied up in Bastia Harbour, Corsica in the Mediterranean

Now, I havent been able to find the fate of the 201 other than it was sent to yugoslavia, so far i have seen no record of its decommissioning, destruction or sale. So I dont know what happened to it.

I hope I have been of some help to you, have a good day,

Greg

[Guest]

Indeed the plot thickens my dear Doctor!

A great find Greg!

However it brings up more complications, to which later!

Looking at several of the British commissioned boats in the PT 200 series, non have been re designated in series, (typical RN) but the query as to the CJMN MT 1-8 is on all of them. So it is likely that one or several of those vessels may have been transferred on to the Yugoslav Navy. It doesn't necessarily mean PT201 was transferred.

Just when we thought we were getting somewhere!

If the images on that Yugoslav site are correct then my boat is definitely not a Higgins 78, but an Elco 80.

The bridge on the Higgins is well forward, not leaving room for a forward deck gun. On my boat the bridge is more central and it has offset machine gun turrets. Starboard side turret being alongside the bridge and portside at rear of engine housing.

To add to the frustrations there were no Elco 80' boats delivered to the RN so I need to make mine a foreign vessel. A shame as I would liked to have kept it British!

I suppose that will help finding data, as there seems to be more information about American naval operations on the net.:emo1:

Annoying though as I have ordered some books about British MTBs and Mediterranean operations.:sobbing:

Greg you really are tenacious when you search!

You even find more sites and info whilst I am posting a reply!

It really is addictive though once you start searching for specific data!

The search now switches to Elco 80' vessels! Sorry!icknose:

[Guest]

Hi Spyderman and welcome to the site,

Have been readiing this thread with interest and have another answer for you,

If you look at the notes at the very bottom of the page on the first link Greg posted, it does tell you what happened to PT-201 - it was one of a few that went to Yugoslavia in 1945 where they built a further 96 of these vessels. And that little flag Greg posted up is indeed the Yugoslav flag so it all adds up now. Whether she was re-numbered when she got there is another story, highly likely though as a lot of forces around the world do similar.

I wish you luck in your search !!

Regards.......Mark

[Guest]

Looking at the pics in your gallery, it definitely looks like an Elco 80 of some sort.

Elco PT boats evolved at a fair rate during the war, and individual skippers mounted them with weapons arrays of all sorts, as in PT109 fame, where a non standard large gun was mounted (lashed) onto the front deck. Whatever they could beg, borrow or steal, especially in the Pacific areas.

It seems yours is a pseudo type superstructure, with bits and bobs from here and there, but erring towards the later version with drop off torpedoes rather than from a tube.

This shows three boats from different eras, showing how they evolved.

PT Boats, Inc.- Drawing Section - ELCO 80'-PT 103 Series

John

[Guest]

Cheers John!

I had looked at that site but had not come across the drawings section. Very interesting.

I have now decided that my boat will be painted up as if from one of three Squadrons. Ron 29 which served in the Mediterranean under British Coastal Services, fleet numbers Pt 552 - PT 563. Rons 34 + 35 which served for a short period in the English Channel under British jurisdiction, fleet numbers PT 498 - 509 and 510 - 521. This all depends on what I can find out about any of these vessels; ie colours and load-out. Favourite option at the moment is Ron 29 as it served in the same theatre as my initial search and was in duty for a longer period.

Thanks guys, keep the information coming.

Terry

[Guest]

Howdy Again,

Well i was re-reading the thread and it hit me. There are facts about this model that we can't or shouldnt ignore. The main fact that sticks out in my mind is your statement "It has the serial number of PT201 on the hull so I am presuming it is a Higgins 78".

I believe that just because we cant find the yugoslavic designation for the MGB 181, doesnt mean that we should run off thinking that this model is instead a model of an Elco PT boat. Cleary if it has "PT-201" on the model it was intended to represent "PT-201".

But we must also remember the keyword in that last statement..."represent". Not all modellers are sticklers of detail, I know I myself have been known on many occassions to take certain liberties when making a model which in my opinion, made the model look better to me. I believe most all modellers are guilty of this and "guilty" may be a bad choice of terms here since we are not all re-creating historic pieces in detail.

I guess what i am saying is, I wouldnt go jumping to the conclusion that just because the photo of boat number 211 see in the picture I posted was different from the model you have.

We must remember that the idea of assembly lines wherein all finished goods turn out exactly the same, is or was at the time of wwII, still a developing technology. Even today, finished goods on assembly lines are not all exactly identical, especially in the fields of construction assembly lines such as boats, aircraft and automobiles. Although each of these items are created in an assembly line setting, each one is still built individually by people, people who make mistakes and create the need for "adaptation".

One need only look are items like the Ferrari, Rolls Royce or Harley davidson. Each of these items are created in an assembly line atmosphere, but are still each individually made. This creates some differences in each product from the previous or following product.

So, I guess what i am saying is that if it were me, I wouldnt go off on a tangient looking for an Elco MGB when we have the "PT-201" number from the model and have found plenty of supporting information for its existance.

Now i realize this posting was of very little value and was more of an opinion piece than anything, but, you should step back and evaluate the information you have vs. the information you have been able to find using the info you have. Like i said the PT-201 being on the model is a "fact", the model being in the UK, where PT-201 was transferred to is another "fact". So judging from both of those "facts" I would tend to believe that the model is infact a model of the 201/181 as you first believed and not a model of an Elco PT boat.

have a good day,

Greg

[Guest]

Greg, as always you are most helpful and I agree with the sentiment of what you say.

I went on the same assumptions that you did Greg, that the number is correct and the model is not. It certainly would be more convenient if it was a British vessel, built by a British builder.

However, looking at the images of the different boats and, again assuming that they are correct enough to be representative of the breed, looking at my boat, it is clear that my boat could not be a Higgins 78.

It is going to be far easier for me to change the number to one that fits the boat than change the boat to fit the number! If you see what I mean? :thinking:

Several thoughts come to mind re the numbering of my boat.

1; It was a kit or plan build of an Elco 80 that had just been numbered with a British number to suit a British builders sensibilities.

2; It was intended to be a model of PT201 but plans were not available of the exact type and so was compromised.

3; It was built from plans that were less than precise about the type and model and were more generic.

4; Parts from some or all of the above.

I'm tending to favour either number 1 or 3 at the moment.

At the end of the day it looks more like an Elco 80' than any other type, so that is what I am going to restore it as.

After finding out so much about PT201 I may be inclined to build another boat at a later date to commemorate it. We shall see!

I do have a KD Perkasa and 3 tugs to get around to as well.

Terry

[Guest]

Terry,

If you are going to refurbish it, yank out that old taycol motor and bin it.

It will cause hours of heartache trying to get it to run in fwd and reverse (has to have a mechanical switching mechanism), and even then you will find your radio will have a permanent case of the twitches.

They have very little intrinsic value, except for maybe curiosity.

I used mine to power my Martek drill sharpener rather than an electric drill. Powered it with my car battery charger.

John