Begginer advice?

[BarryW]

I am 100% with Laurie on this. I used enamels 'back in the day' and just before kids and career intervened acrylics were just appearing with which I dabbled (Humbrol being the only ones available). I took to acrylics immediately due to the lack of smell and easy clean-up.

When I returned I stared part enamel/part acrylic and with Humbrol. I then tried Vallejo Model Air in my (then) new a/b and was totally and instantly converted. I found them so much easier in so many ways, all the more so when I got to learn about their 'quirks'.

For me the most important lesson using acrylics was patience. Yes they 'touch dry' much quicker than enamels but that is not dry enough to do anything other than another base coat. To do anything more than that and certainly if it involves masking or varnishing you need to allow at least 24 hours for the paint to cure.

I also learned to use a proper primer - the Vallejo ones in my case. There are two benefits, first of all showing up flaws in the kit that can be corrected but secondly they help make a more robust finish. I have actually started to leave primers 48 hours before sanding (to make sure you can 'feather') and before applying a base colour.

Treat them right and acrylics have all their advantages and non of the disadvantages that can apply if you do it wrong.

Oh.... the clogging also need not be a problem, again its getting the rigth needle/pressure combination. I have made them work with a 0.2 needle but generally use now a 0.4 needle with no problems. One thing I do do when I am involved spraying a large model that takes several cup loads of paint is to squirt a cupful of thinner or a/b cleaner through between cup loads of paint.

Another tip with acrylics - thin with the companies own thinner, not water. This helps it 'stick' and be more robust.

[stona]

I rarely clean my airbrushes as in 'deep clean'. I just flush them and wipe the bowl. Eventually they will need a proper clean but they let you know when! Usually its is months rather than weeks.

I'm never in a rush to get a second coat of paint on a model. Most enamels can be recoated in 8-12 hours, perfect for overnight reflection. Don't forget that most enamels cover far better than acrylics, this is certainly a factor when masking. I used to struggle to avoid a ridge along colour demarcations with acrylics.

I did say at the top that this was a can of worms and you will always get differing views of what works best. It's helpful to have differing views and to get the information out there.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

With cleaning an airbrush Steve the type of airbrush has to be taken into account.

Started with H & S which is such an easy brush to clean. As said 4mins. top to bottom.

An Iwata is the very devil of a machine to clean. Needing spanners and very very nimble fingers to hold the nozzle even more difficult to clean. So for this one take to sink sluice with clean water, pump through 4 cups of water plus two cups of cleaner. Leave a small amount of cleaner in cup to avoid any residual paint there may be being naughty.

On coverage Steve Vallejo Acrylics is a great performer. Most, not yellow etc, will cover with a mist coat plus a full coat with about 20% thinned top coat. Should say that this is Vallejo Air. Other Acrylics including Vallejo Model I have not found so easy to use as Vallejo.

Just all proves try them to prove.

Laurie

[Guest]

........

On the blockage of airbrushes I suspect that most are caused by poor maintenance and cleaning. Plus knowing your airbrush with a matched needle nozzle for the medium you are using. With the present airbrush in 6 months one blockage and my fault a new airbrush and poor attention to detail. But an H & S brush 4 mins for a deep clean up and running for the second coat of acrylics. enamels drying time ?

Laurie

I hardly ever get a blockage now (Vallejo Model Air, H & S AB, 0.4 needle, 20 psi). I thoroughly clean the AB every time except when changing the paint (but not varnish) and continuing to spray. When I do, I think the problem could be clumping of the paint in the bottle. Model Air paints vary in this, perhaps because of the type of pigment particles used. Some migh coagulate (flocculate) more than others. Dark Sea Grey ( 71.042) is a suspect. I have a size 4 stainless steel nut in all my bottles and shake very well. Another clumping possibility is that the paint in the bottle's nozzle does not get mixed enough with the rest.

On the question of enamels versus acrylics, I spray (with a spraybooth) in a spare bedroom. When using Tamiya Synthetic Lacquer recently, I had to do it in the garage because of the smell of the solvent (cellulose thinners) which would have filled the house. When I tried enamels some time ago, its solvent (White Spirit) also filled the house. For that reason I cannot conveniently use enamels, but clearly they give very good results.

This thread will be very helpful to beginners.

[Guest]

Regarding clogging etc, there are a lot of people who have this problem with Vallejo paints (model colour rather than model air) . You only have to do a Google search to see that it's much more prevalent with Vallejo than any other brand.

The reason for this I believe, is that Vallejo add a 'plasticiser' to make their paint more durable & provide better coverage. This is the same ingredient that any car body shop adds when spraying plastic bumpers.

However in a small nozzle (0.2/0.3mm), this will cause problems with clogging for many.

I've used enamels with cellulose thinner before & the finish is better than any acrylic paint. The same finish can be achieved by using cellulose thinner & Tamiya acrylics, because they're synthetic acrylic.

The reason for this is chemical effect - lacquer / cellulose thinner being chemically 'hotter' bonds to the surface of the plastic. Acrylic paint simply sits on the plastic. Also the cellulose thinner breaks down the pigment much better, resulting in a smoother finish.

Each to their own, but my choice would

always be cellulose thinner either with tamiya acrylics or any enamel paint.

[BarryW]

Patrick - on Vallejo, I have sprayed Model Colour successfully thinned 50% with a 0.4 needle. That said I have now moved fully to Model Air and have the full range (except metallics, I much prefer Gunze buffables for that). I keep Model Colour only in a few colours for specific jobs with a hairy stick, (black and white for detail for instance).

You are right though, it does depend on some specific factors and a 0.3 or smaller needle would be a problem with MC. The Model Air range now is so large there is no real need to mix and spray Model Colour (or any other brand).

It is indeed all to their own but as I said earlier, Model Air are easier to use for beginners but they do need to treat them right.

One further associated point....

On another forum, months ago, there was a similar thead and people got very 'antsi' with each other over it to such a degree mods had to intervene. I really have no idea why anyone would get so worked up to get nasty over this but what a testiment to this forum that we have all been able to exchange views and opinion here in such a constructive and sensible way. This is indeed the best forum on the net.

[Guest]

Regarding clogging etc, there are a lot of people who have this problem with Vallejo paints (model colour rather than model air) . You only have to do a Google search to see that it's much more prevalent with Vallejo than any other brand.

Model Colour Patrick is a Vallejo paint basically for hand brushing. For me Model Colour is the best way I can find of clogging my Airbrush. Any one airbrushing this paint is a genius.

Which is why Vallejo produced Vallejo Model Air.

Just got to agree with Barry a nice discussion with a great number of issues among which most of us have a definite preference. One thing which is certain is that paint manufacturers would not be producing all of the products we have been pleasantly arguing about if there was not a demand.

Just one thing i would add is that I certainly would not have let my grandsons loose unless it was a non toxic product. I have been pleading with our local provider to stock acrylics for young people. The penny has dropped and there they are.

Laurie

Barry. I have noticed with interest that you have become a "Unicorn". Is this a Vallejo product.

[Guest]

Laurie, surely Model Air is simply pre-thinned Model Colour?

And I think the reason why people airbrush Model Colour is (like me) a question of economics & not having sufficient funds to buy 2 lots of paint in the same colours.

[stona]

I agree, a very good, educational and good natured discussion. Of course different people will have different opinions and views about what works best for them. I'd be amazed if they didn't. Nobody is right or wrong, both camps have pros and cons.

I am interested to know if the much shorter drying time for acrylic type paints is an important factor in people's choices. It's not something that I read or hear often but you never know. What do you 'acrylicers' think?

I use a lot of WEM Colour Coats along with good old Humbrol enamels. Occasionally I will get hold of a special colour by Model Master (I quite like the screw top jars they come in). My favourites are definitely the Colour Coats. Not only do they do a very good range of accurate aircraft colours but they can be thinned with cellulose thinners and give a really smooth and durable finish. I personally can't match it with any acrylic I've tried, and that's most of them, during a flirtation of a couple of years. That's just me though

Nothing apart from a change in the law would get me back to acrylics, but then I bet Laurie feels the same way about enamels !

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

They say Patrick.

Model Air is a range of liquid acrylic colours developed especially for airbrush techniques, with very finely ground pigments and an acrylic resin with properties of extreme resistence and durability.

The formula contains a new acrylic resin with properties until now impossible to obtain in a waterbased acrylic. The resistence, hardness and covering power of Model Air is superior to any known acrylic for airbrushing.

The pigments used for airbrush colours need to be ground to the finest possible consistency to avoid obstruction of the airbrush valves. The revolutionary milling process of the pigments used in the Model Air formula gives the modelpainter technical assurance and finest texture when applying the colours to the model, and produces a very superior quality when applying the colours with a brush for miniscule details, for washes and transparencies and layered application of diluted glazes.



The difference is chalk and cheese, at least from my experience, with the fineness of the pigments. Thin Model and it does not work as Model Air. Model Air is much thinner when brushed on by hand. Model obliterates with most colours in one swipe.

Laurie

[Guest]

I am interested to know if the much shorter drying time for acrylic type paints is an important factor in people's choices. It's not something that I read or hear often but you never know. What do you 'acrylicers' think?

Steve

Certainly was a factor mixed in with a load of others. But for instance on the present model after the top coat 30 mins later I was laying on for effect in different areas a slightly lighter colour to pick out interest.

It was not a factor in its own right I just tried acrylics as I had a really awful time with enamel. Just happened that acrylics suited my personality and I think that personality fact has a lot to do with the choice of paint type.

But 24 hours is a minimum if you want to wet and dry as you will just pull the paint off and leave craters. I usually manage with care to ensure I do not get hairs or bits so that is not usually a problem ie I do not have to wet and dry every coat. I am afraid drying time for enamels drove me potty but then I can become impatient. "She" told me so, many times.

Laurie

[Guest]

Haha well Vallejo are hardly going to say that their product is rubbish! I'm sure the advertising blurb for every paint extols it's virtues.

I might buy a pot of Model Air & do a comparison test.

But my point regarding economics is still perfectly valid - not everyone can afford multiple paint types.

If it wasn't for the smell, I'd use enamels all the time - slower drying time isn't a factor with my glacial pace of building!

[Guest]

Well Patrick you asked for the differences between Model Colour and Model air. The differences are given there. What they say there I would after 4 years of using their product is that I am satisfied with what they state. I do not use them on the basis of their blurb they are used on their merit.

Forgot to say that the thinners in Model Air and Model are not the same. They do not recommend keeping to that when thinning.

If you want to know more about Vallejo then their Q and A dossier I would say is second to none. No blurb either

http://cdn.acrylicosvallejo.com/65a2f7365274da82fe3b0d786827957b/model-FAQS-CC001-rev03.pdf

Your last line Patrick equals my thinking personality chooses the paint.

Laurie

[stona]

Economics must be a factor for everyone (unless there's been a recent lottery win). I can tell you that even though I kept all my enamel paints when I used acrylics for a couple of years the changeover had a significant cost. When ditching the acrylics I had to rebuild stocks of some enamel colours which also incurred a cost. Everyone has a budget, some are bigger than others, but such costs do impinge on that budget.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest]

Ah Steve that is interesting a reversal of my experience.

How did you find Acrylics whose did you use. Plus why did you switch.

Laurie