Vallejo Primer From Hell !!!!

[Guest]

Stirred not shaken........ I am the opposite of James Bond in so many ways

[Ian M]

If you ever have problems with Vallejo, contact them via their web site and give them the batch number from the bottle. It could be one of the iffy ones and they will replace it.


As for thinners, splash out on a bottle of their airbrush thinners and use that. It's made for the job.

[Guest]

About a year ago I had terrible persistent trouble with blocking of the nozzle (I have a good quality Harder and Steenbeck AB) using Vallejo Model Air paint (not primer). I shook the bottles, which had a rattler in the form of small stainless steel nut. Even reaming the nozzle did not help. I poured Model Air paint into a container and then from it into the cup, watching for lumps. It was so bad I had to buy a new needle and nozzle. I haven't done much airbrushing since but perhaps the problem has gone away. It might have been caused by the fact that I has sprayed Tamiya lacquer (solvent is Cellulose Thinners). Although the good quality seals were not affected, I won't do that again. I have yet to try Vallejo's Flow Improver (John's shop sells it).


In fact, if I am painting something which does not need the smooth finish of an AB, like a rust or dirt effect or a bumpy surface, I use a brush. Very quick overall and simple cleaning afterwards.

[aaron]

I use tap water to thin. Never had a problem with Vallejo primer and I use it on everything. Good luck getting this sorted Monica.

[Guest]

For what it's worth I am going to do a video soon about my experiences with Vallejo products. I hate to type so that is my alternative. Here is an excerpt from a p.m. I had with someone on a different forum that kind of roughs out whatI have found pertaining to the paint, and probably covers the primer as well.


Oddly enough, as for me, the primer hasn't given me any problems. I have posted a few times on various forums (here too maybe) about my opinion concerning all of the additives and special potions one has to use to get some products to work. I find it annoying that stuff doesn't work out of the bottle. At worst a need to thin something a bit with the manufacturers own thinner should be all that's necessary. Flow enhancers, retarders, window cleaner, armadillo urine mixed with wombat saliva... just seems like a lot of hassle.


"Interesting. You have suffered the exact same situation as me. I will predict that the MM Acryl will spray fine, as mine did. I am pretty meticulous about airbrush care, and had the same problem with the Vallejo, but not the MM Acryl. When I back flushed my new Badger 105 Patriot during the first spray job where clogging was taking place, a glob came out. (And I always spray cleaner through a new airbrush before the first paint goes in in case there are any oils or anything present.)


As for the scum on top, let me know what you find. I am going to guess that it will be fine on top, though. I opened a bottle once and it was nice and liquidy (is that a word!?) I think the problem lies in over mixing. Other than the paint getting a little thicker near the bottom as it gets used up, the paint worked fine until I added an agitator. Vallejo's recommendation is to roll the bottle between your hands to mix the paint, which didn't make a lick of sense... until now. I have read that shaking acrylic paint introduces air bubbles into the paint in excess, causing minute curing of little bits of paint. It can happen to enamels as well, just not as bad. This thickens the paint a bit. I think Paul Budzig comments on this in one of his videos. I have used my Badger paint stirrer/mixer in the MM Acryl with no problems (yet). I think this works because the mixing part of the Badger mixer is inside the paint getting the thicker material off the bottom without introducing air as it is mixed. When I shake the Vallejo paint and open it, it is bubbly, as you mentioned. The MM Acryl mixed with the Badger mixer is not bubbly at all, since mixing happens below the surface.


What I think is happening is this:


1. Shaking the paint, as opposed to "rolling" the bottle introduces air into the paint, thereby causing it to thicken and/or dry prematurely


2. The agitator is loosening the "boogers" that cling to the sides and bottom of the bottle, whether it be dried paint (on the sides) or ultra thick pigment that just won't mix, on the bottom. I am thinking the latter is the real culprit.


I have a paint job on a tank coming up soon, so I will give one of the Panzer colors from the Model Air line a try. I haven't put a, agitator in it and I am going to try the roll-between-your-hands method and see what happens.


The only other solution I can come up with is to strain the paint somehow before it is added to the cup. I am going to try and Irish-rig something using a faucet aerator. The screen in those is pretty fine, but rigid, so I think it wouldn't be too much of a hassle to make something handy."


I will let you all know when I do the video, which will be soon, so you can watch if you want.

[rickoshea52]

If paint and primer shouldn't be shaken because of aeration then why do rattle cans have agitators and why do Mig, for example, sell steel bearings for this job? I agree that shaking introduces air to paint but air will want to escape from this suspension under ambient conditions, also if shaking introduces air to the paint what happens when that paint is blown through an airbrush?


This is just my point of view and alternatives are available.

[Guest]

I think the difference is that the air that is introduced by shaking stays in the paint longer. Air from the airbrush is almost immediately on the model and not sitting for long periods. I read about the shaken acrylics having this problem, or saw it on Youtube. Rattle cans are completely different. It is a factory sealed air-tight container, so nothing new is added when its shaken. And they are mostly solvent based so not as much of an issue anyway.


As for agitators in the paint, I think that it is not so much a problem with newer paint, i.e., fresher from the factory. Paint that has sat on a shelf somewhere (months, or even a year or more) would be more likely to get separated. Some of the bottles I have used of Vallejo paint have a skin formed on the sides and inside the neck of the bottle that regardless of shaking, mixing, chanting, thinning, etc., it is going to stay like that. Once an agitator is added it breaks that junk free where it can clog the airbrush. I thinks that is what causes problems with acrylic paints, especially Vallejo.


So, that said, the above post I made is my experience so far, and I may have different findings as I go along. Some people have absolutely no problem with Vallejo paints. I have. Sometimes it has worked without problems, other times it is a lost cause.

[Guest]

On my next airbrushing job, not having done any for many months, I will do what I did to help cure my horrendous blocking last year: pour the Vallejo Air into another more open-mouthed container, watching for lumps, clean the Vallejo dropper bottle and the spout very thoroughly with a small bottle brush, removing any skin which will often be there, (as Brett says), then replacing in the dropper bottle and using within a couple of months. We must accept that Vallejo acrylic Model Air paints do cause inexplicable problems for some people, and we must do our best to reduce these.


Advice on the Tamiya site advises not shaking their spray cans but holding the can upright and the top stationary and rotating the bottom round several times to get the rattle going but which stays at the bottom. They say this will minimise the introduction of air which you don't want much of and which vigorous shaking will produce.


As I have said elsewhere, I avoid airbrushing when using a conventional brush will do - for example when producing a rust or heavily weathered or otherwise battered effect. I even brush on the primer coat. For a high gloss finish I usually use Tamiya Synthetic lacquer in their spray cans. All this is so much quicker, partly because cleaning the AB is not involved.

[Guest]

Advice on the Tamiya site advises not shaking their spray cans but holding the can upright and the top stationary and rotating the bottom round several times to get the rattle going but which stays at the bottom. They say this will minimise the introduction of air which you don't want much of and which vigorous shaking will produce.

That is very interesting. I generally don't use rattle can paint on models, but will store this info away. And seems further proof of the air in the paint thing.

[BarryW]

I have used Vallejo Model Air for about 4 years or more and have always shaken the bottles and have placed agitators in the bottles.


Ultimately the results depend on a mix of factors including the airbrush set-up, temperature, humidity and so on. This is why we all don't get consistent results with one thing not working for one person working well for others and why it is necessary to have flow aids etc in our armoury. Some individual colours also behave differently to others and also you will get the odd bottle that is 'off' something true of all makes of paint.


I am moving across gradually to the AKI AIr Series of acrylics now (air referring to aircraft not airbrush). But this is nothing to do with any shortcomings with Vallejo but more because I find the AKI paints are particularly good and are in the same eye dropper bottles. I dont expect to ever stop using Vallejo all together though.


This thread started about the primers and then got sidetracked. I found the Vallejo primers OK treated right, but the new Stynilrex (however it is spelt) primer to be far better. I would recommend switching primers accordingly.

[Guest]

So right on the side tracking.


My original point in the paint comparison was related to the brand, and why I thought there might be trouble with the primer. i can't remember if I mentioned it, but the primer is the one thing I don't have problems with, agitator and all. Maybe it was a freshly manufactured bottle that hadn't had time to really separate and congeal on the sides and bottom.


Stynelrez looks like a great alternative for primer, for sure. I am also thinking of giving it a try.

[R_G]

I recently switched from Tamiya primer to Stynylrez. Nothing wrong with Tamiya primer, I just wanted to get away from the fumes. The Stynylrez seemed to work very well and dried quickly. The instructions say that it can be sprayed straight from the bottle without thinning, but I had some issues with it clogging up my airbrush a little(Badger Patriot 105). Once I added 25-30% Tamiya thinner it sprayed very well at 25 PSI.


Ralph

[meggsy]

I used the stynylrez? For the first time last week straight from the bottle and have to say it was a nightmare kept clogging my airbrush


What I did manage to spray I have to say I was impressed with ill give the tamiya thinners ago and keep my fingers crossed


Happy new year

[monica]

so sorry for the late reply all,


but had not been showing up with reply,


thank you all for the great help and info on this one,all very useful indeed,


some of the points made I do do,like using the vallejo thinners and so on,


will need to get some flow improver and give that a try,


I do have so gray and red/brown for well over 1 1/2 ,as I mostly use black,


give them a shake and add a few drops of thinner ,and away I go,


but this one real was a nightmare


will keep in mind for next time to drop them a email,about the problems,


so again great info and help from you all,


but in the end other than being a pain in the butts,its costing me a new AB,


as even if i get needles will cost me $15,and wait up to 4 wks so,just get a n


new brush,for $22,oh well,starting to get a few of these things I cannot even use,

[BarryW]

Regarding the Stynilrez primer i understand its optimised for a .35 needle so blockage could well be experienced with a smaller needle. In which case thinning (Vallejo airbrush thinner is comparable, not Tamiya though) is needed. Get the air pressure right too as you may find you need a slightly higher pressure as well.