Acrylic or enamel?

[Ian M]

Vallejo Model Colour are for the hairy stick.

I thin and spray them all the time with out any issues that are worth mentioning. I find that they are also very economical as well.


By the way Peter, Vallejo also do Day Glow....


Ian M

[takeslousyphotos]

I thin and spray them all the time with out any issues that are worth mentioning. I find that they are also very economical as well.
By the way Peter, Vallejo also do Day Glow....


Ian M

Thanks Ian ........ I have never used Valejo Acrylics ....... I'll file that away for the future.


Peter

[stona]

To be honest I had never considered the health issues in using enamels but maybe you have a point. It is the blasted smell and that of the thinners that I can't stand, it stinks the house out and that causes my wife to complain, takes all the fun out of it

Enamel paints are not any more 'toxic' than acrylics. If you don't use a good extractor and/or mask then you will be inhaling an aerosol of either type when spraying, its just that generally you can smell the enamel solvent and not the acrylic, though have a whiff of one of Tamiya's so called acrylics. All paints are solvent based and not all acrylics use sympathetic (to us) solvents.


The trick is to find what works for you and use that. Given the limited exposure you should have in any normal modelling use, and sensible use of protection, the toxicity argument is not really valid. I bet you would have a greater exposure to solvents painting the skirting boards in one room or varnishing one floor than in a year's model making.


If you don't like the smell of certain paints (and both enamels and 'acrylics' can have strong odours) then that's a good reason to try something else.


Personally I like traditional enamels because they are easier to spray. They are more tolerant of imprecise thinning and variations in spraying pressure and they never dry at the airbrush tip or before hitting the model surface. They are also very easy to clean. The longer drying time gives plenty of time to spot any cock ups and they can often be fixed whilst the paint is still drying. The longer drying time also teaches that most valuable of all lessons to any model builder...patience.


Others will make similar arguments (apart from drying times) for their preference, but that's okay


Cheers


Steve

[Guest]

I am going to use my artist's tube acrylics this time as I have just paid £12 for them. I have just spent over 4 hours (don't laugh) masking up my Apollo Saturn V in preparation for the first gloss coat, the entire outside is just a patchwork of black and white squares and I have decided to paint the white first. This is my question... How long should I leave the finished (prob 2 coats) of white before masking up for the black to be certain that I won't damage the white when I eventually remove it?

[stona]

I'm not familiar with the acrylic paints you are using but now is a useful time to raise the difference between drying and curing. All paints dry and cure as a result of various chemical reactions. Acrylic paints dry much quicker than some other solvent based paints, but they still require time for the reactions to complete, giving a fully cured and hardened surface. I would leave your first colour over night at least before masking.


I often read of people masking after a few hours but always ask myself why they are in such a hurry? Why take the risk? If it does go wrong and they have to start again it will certainly take longer


Cheers


Steve

[Guest]

Interesting not really sure what toxic means (my referral to toxic is a Laurie definition). But thought it related to the harm that it can do to living objects by using certain substances. The toxicity can be harmful depending on the exposure to the substances. Humans and animals vary in their vulnerability to a toxic substance. That is some may not be vulnerable at all some may be at the slightest whiff or touch of a toxic substance. Think all that is reasonably correct.


First I did not choose to use acrylics because I thought they would or would not produce a better finish than Enamels or were easier to use.


I chose acrylics as for me enamel paint was harmful. It gave me a thundering headache even with a fan to remove it the stuff. The thinners white spirit also produced a nettle rash (should have known as petrol does the same) not within secs but say after a night of spraying and cleaning. Whether this in scientific terms is toxic I have no idea.


I also suffer from a dratted skin disease called Psoriasis. Use of thinners aggravated this complaint making the skin red raw at times. In fact for all these reasons if it had not been for acrylics I would have had to pack it all in.


I then turned to acrylics, water based, and have not had any of the above problems since. So for me enamels are toxic (by my definition) for others not so. I suppose there is the possibility they affect some without them realising but then you could say the same about Vallejo thinner or probably more so the Vallejo airbrush Cleaner which is more potent than the thinner. Although I have not heard of any complaints in this direction.


Not tried the Tamiya solvent based acrylics so I cannot tell if that would have a harmful effect to me.


So if you are allergic in any way then I would be careful as from my understanding and experience allergic reactions grow in intensity with the use and carry on, hopefully with an end insight, for a time after the substance is no longer used.


Leaving the above aside I just found that using enamel thinners permeated throughout the house with this awfull smell.


I would say to any one get some enamel and some acrylic paint and try both (not at the same time). It is the only way that you are going to find if you are allergic to one or the other. Also to find the capabilities the ease of use and which finish you like best. In my opinion, from what I have seen, superb models have been produced here in both acrylic and enamels.


Bit of irony. I swear by acrylics for painting due to all the above. However if I walk through M and S I have an allergic reaction to all the acrylic clothing in the place.


Laurie

[Guest]

I would leave your first colour over night at least before masking.
Cheers Steve

Actually with water based Acrylics Steve 24 hours at least and really to be safe best 48 hours. A lot depends on how the plastic has been prepared for the primer and that primer has in fact been used.


How do I know all of that. Patience as has been said. Strip masking tape with the paint attached is not a happy event and takes a lot longer to correct than the extra 24 hours it would have been better to wait.


Actually the car body lining tape I find is better than Tamiya type tape . It sticks better has a good edge seal and releases better.


Laurie

[Guest]

I'm not familiar with the acrylic paints you are using but now is a useful time to raise the difference between drying and curing. All paints dry and cure as a result of various chemical reactions. Acrylic paints dry much quicker than some other solvent based paints, but they still require time for the reactions to complete, giving a fully cured and hardened surface. I would leave your first colour over night at least before masking.
I often read of people masking after a few hours but always ask myself why they are in such a hurry? Why take the risk? If it does go wrong and they have to start again it will certainly take longer


Cheers


Steve

Thanks for the info Steve, I have decided I will leave it for a min of 24 hours before putting masking tape on it. As you say, what's the rush and why take the risk? Laurie suggests perhaps 48 hours to be absolutely safe and I may do that. Cheers.


Keith.

[Guest]

Just forgotten Keith you are using acrylics with hand brushing. As hand brushing is going to be, by it's nature, a thicker paint film and take more time to cure also you are using an artists acrylic of unknown characteristics I would definitely go with 48 hours cure time.


I would stick a bit of paint on spare plastic and test before you stick any tape on the model.


Laurie

[Guest]

I would stick a bit of paint on spare plastic and test before you stick any tape on the model.


Laurie

Good idea Laurie, thanks for that, I will do that for sure as it's the only way to be certain. I will defo leave it for 48 hours anyway.


BTW Sorry to learn you suffer from psoriasis, a very nasty complaint to have I am sure. Hope you manage to keep it under control.

[Ian M]

Being fortunate enough to not suffer allergies, skin conditions or lunge issues worse than the self inflicted tobacco I use what ever type of paint 'gets the job done' or is the best colour.


Buy a good mask, a box of latex gloves and some form of extraction system (remember to left fresh air in as well) and 99% of the immediate issues are solved.


As for stinking out the whole house, open a window and shut the door.


The only time the good lady has made any comment is when I have used "a bit much" cellulose thinner during a good clean up. Oh and when I knocked over a bottle liquid poly... Even I left the room.

[Guest]

As for stinking out the whole house, open a window and shut the door.

Yes, of course, I do that already, but living in a bungalow means every room is close to every other room, hence strong smells, such as thinners, easily and rapidly spread through the whole house. Because of that, and the ease of cleaning brushes and easy brush application, I will stick with acrylics. This way I am happy, my dear wife is happy, and what's more, no nasty smells in the house, apart from those caused by the dogs of course.

[Guest]

i have been using tamiya acrylics for a number of years now and as some of you may already know i have started using Revell aqua colour because there is no smell to them and they brush on very well i also have used humbrol acrylics in the past which are also very good and both revell and humbrol can be thinned and cleaned up with water.

[Gern]

When I first started modelling again, I bought two types of paint - Tamiya acrylics and Revell Aqua. I found I couldn't use the Tamiya with a brush to save my life - and others have made similar comments although it's supposed to be excellent for use in an airbrush. The Aqua is great for brush painting. It should be thinned and I've always done this by adding a few drops of water to the container as I stir it to mix the pigment back in to the carrier. Problem with that is it leaves a residue of dried paint around the inside of the container (the blue liquid is the carrier for the pigment which has settled to the bottom):


[ATTACH]101251.IPB[/ATTACH]



Of course, subsequent stirring causes some of this dried paint to fall off - which naturally clogs up your airbrush if you try to spray it! You can also find these lumps of paint get onto your kit when you use an ordinary brush but I've not had any significant problems with that.


Consequently, I switched to Revell and Humbrol enamels. Steve (Stona) very kindly gave me a demonstration of using an airbrush with enamels and I managed to get some good results - for me that is. Unfortunately, despite opening a window and wearing a mask, the fumes from the paint and thinner caused coughing. (I'll be getting an extractor booth when funds allow and try again as I do like the finish I can get with enamels.)


Now I use Vallejo almost exclusively unless I can't find the colour I need or it's just tiny bits where I can use just about any paint. I find I can use both Model Air and Model Colour for painting with a brush or an airbrush. They both need to be thinned for both applications but I can't give exact ratios. I add thinner until it seems right then test spray or brush and adjust if needed. I will just add that I do not use Vallejo thinner for Vallejo metallic colours. Every time I've tried that, the paint turns into a thick gooey mess like treacle and I've had to spend a considerable time cleaning out my airbrush. I thin the metallics with just a few drops of tap water and they work fine.


The choice between enamels and acrylics eventually comes down to what works for you as an individual. Once you've chosen, you'll improve the finish and results you get with practise. Then you could start looking at the differences between the paint types in terms of more precise kinds of finish you need - rough, dirty matt on tanks etc v. smooth, shiny, high-gloss on cars for example. Then you might find yourself selecting a particular type of paint for a particular finish.

[BarryW]

It certainly is strange how people all have different experiences with different paints and we all develop our own preferences as we should based on those experiences.


A lot of us like Vallejo for all the reasons explained but there are some shortcomings with them. For me the main problem is the confusing and mixed up paint labelling. Some examples:


For RAF Medium Sea Grey the Vallejo recommendation in their WWII British Aircraft Colours RAF-FAA leaflet is to use Model Air .047 which is labelled US Grey and not .049 which is actually labelled Medium Sea Grey. Then there is RAF Dark Green, Vallejo suggest Model Air 0.16 US Dark Green. For Ocean Grey it is .048 Dark Sea Grey and so on.... The confusion does not stop at that either, you get it accross their range. Indeed if you look at various other colour comparison sites then you can get other answers such as 0.13 Yellow Olive for RAF Dark Green. At least Vallejo do all label their RLM equivalents accordingly but even so many of them share different colour 'roles' with for instance RLM81 also being labelled as Olive Drab.


Now I am not particularly anal about colour and do not get into arguments you see on-line as to whose interpretation of RLM02 is closest. The truth is that any or all of them could be right, but I do like to have a clearly idenified colour for a particular purpose.


That is the main reason I am gradually switching to AK Interactive acrylics now they are producing the 'Air' series paint. The 'Air' referes to them being designed for aircraft, not the airbrush.


They produce specific paints for specific purposes that are well researched. Consequently they have their WW2 RAF Camo set with their Medium Sea Grey actually being RAF Medium Sea Grey!! No confusion. They have two RLM sets, a WW2 IJN set and a Modern US set as well so far with more to produce.


They also have all the advantages of Vallejo - the eye dropper bottle, they spray beautifully unthinned (0.4 needle), in fact I believe they spray better than Vallejo Model Air and are less prone to tip drying. They are also designed for the hairy stick as well. They are certainly not just Vallejo in a different label which was what I thought they would be before I tried them out.


There is one shortcoming of the AKI air series acryilics in that they are not yet available as single bottles, only in sets. I am told that will change when they bring out a few more sets. I will snap them up when new sets do come out and in the meantime I am just hoping I don't run out of a colour before the 1/24 Tiffy is finished!!!