how Much Of A Difference

[Guest]

OK, its wednesday which means silly question from Penny day (Actually you guys have turned all my silly questions into quite interesting threads)

So, Ive just found out the structure of an FS code.

For the benefit of reference to those that dont know here is a very very quick breakdown.

The FS is made up of 5 numbers as such

abccc

a Refers to the finish, i.e. Gloss, Matt, etc

b Is the basic colour, Reds, Browns, Yellows etc

ccc is the shade, the lower the number the darker it is.

Right. so looking ONLY at the last 3 digits, how much of a difference is there

For example, if you require xx100 and you only had xx090 is that "close enough". Thats 10 shades out.

How far out is too far out?

Does this vary from the seriousness of the modeller?

I suspect it caries also with the part you are painting?

I can imagine some people would say 1 shade is too much, beginners may be saying, well surely 50 shades wont make a difference for a cockpit?

The reason Im asking?

Im putting together what I believe will be the ULTIMATE paint conversion chart. Not only will it list the conversions, but it will also suggest close matches so that you can make an informed choice.

Here is an example

Lets say I require FS 34097 which Ive classified as "Matt Green, Very Dark 97"

This converts to Humbrol 30.

But, If you go 1 shade lighter, you get FS34096 (Matt Green Very Dark 96) which is Model Color 70.895 and Tamiya XF-61 (Some conversion charts claim AS-13 but surely that would be FS24097?)

In this above example we are talking 1 shade only, but if you are looking at, for example, a conversion chart, its very yes or no. There is no conversion from FS34097 to Model Color, but if you (I think its called this) fuzzy search, you get a very close match.

Anyway, once again, I waffle. So, how many shades of FS code would you say are acceptable on a "use at your own peril" suggestion?

[Ian M]

Well Penny, yet another very interesting thread is about to emerge from your far from silly question.

Many know that good old saying, beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. I have much the same attitude to colour.

How dark is to dark, How light is to light. Scale, modulation, and contrast are all going to rear their heads in this one, so I will give my take on it.

The bigger the scale of the model, the darker the shade can be without it appearing wrong. Likewise the smaller the scale, the lighter the shade can be and to all intent and purpose still look correct. You could try this by building two aircraft. one large scale, say 1/24 The other 1/72. Paint the big one a few shades darker than the small one. Both, each by themselves will look right, but next to each other the difference will be noticeable. Paint the large one to light and the small one to dark and it will look off.

Many people try all they can to get the 100% correct colour, what ever the scale and that can look wrong what ever the scale. Add to that the weathering, fading and staining and that 100% match is hidden away.

Ian M

[Guest]

Also Ian I go further.

I keep all my models in the same room. So they are colour matched for that lighting. Also some model manufacturers who have their own paints use their nearest colour to the actual colour in reality.

The Merlin Helicopter has a Humbrol Green which is just awful. Plus if you look at a Helicopter that has been in Afganistan for a few weeks the colour change is remarkable.

Another plus. Tried a Humbrol Colour against a Vallejo colour both with the same FS number and there was quite a difference.

I used to get hung up on colours Penny but not now I change them to suit me. I would add that I bet no one would tell the difference. If you look at two identical aircraft on an airfield one to the left one to the right even in cloudy conditions they will look different. As an ex videographer I can say that film in the morning will look different to film in the afternoon by a long way.

Laurie

[Guest]

I have literally no idea what you are on about.

[Ian M]

As an ex videographer I can say that film in the morning will look different to film in the afternoon by a long way.

But that is down to the colour temperature of the film. Morning light is cooler than afternoon light, so will appear more blue, while the warmer afternoon light will pick up on the warm end of the spectrum.

All the paint makers can only make an approximation of each others colours. to make exactly the same colour 100% match, they would have to use 100% the same ingredients.

Take a good old black paint. from different makers. Thin it right out so much that the pigments split. Some will contain Green pigments others blue..... but they both look black.

I guess what it comes down to in the end is finding the either the paint that offers the most authentic match or the one that pleases you most.

Personally I'm an "in the ball park" kind of guy, with a hint of try to get the contrasts right....

Ian M

[dave]

The colour under different lighting is an interesting issue. I know a couple of figure painters who paint under a normal tungsten bulb as that is the same light they will be displayed under. They wish to get the colours to "look right" under the slightly yellow cast.

I cannot remember where I saw it but I did see a chart for lightening colours based on the scale of the model being painted.

Personally I am with Laurie, I use the conversion charts to get close, but I will change too a different paint if I think the colour looks wrong. It is worth bearing in mind, particularly for war zones, our subjects were sometimes painted under less than ideal conditions with what was available at the time. Not what the rule book may have stated.

In my view modelling is an art form and if it looks right it is right.

[Guest]

But that is down to the colour temperature of the film. Morning light is cooler than afternoon light, so will appear more blue, while the warmer afternoon light will pick up on the warm end of the spectrum.Ian M

Very much so Ian and the video cameras I used auto changed. But even with white light adjustment I have taken video in the morning and afternoon and there is a huge difference. The difference in contrast makes the huge difference.

Look in your lounge where the walls butt into the corner and each wall looks different.

In my view modelling is an art form and if it looks right it is right.

100% with that.

Laurie

[Guest]

Sorry, Penny, but you're starting off with the wrong premise; the numbers are just that - numbers, and they have no significance other than that. Looking at a card of colours, in the brown (10000, 20000, 30000 series) 10091 is lighter than 10080, as you would expect, but 10076 is lighter than 10080, and 10075 is darker than 10076, but still lighter than 10080. The same apparent anomalies crop up in all of the charts. The numbers give you a hint about how dark the colour might be, but there is no form of gradation to the colours as you go down the list.

[Guest]

I have literally no idea what you are on about.

Not sure which bit Michael. But the main point is that if you view an aircraft for instance in reality it is full size.

When you view a scale model I find that to paint it the colours of the full sized aircraft looks unreal. So for the aircraft I am building at present which is a darkish green I used a green which although similar was not as harsh. Plus I also mixed in white on a basis 10 green 3 white. To me that looked right.

I would add that I made numerous mixes to get the balance that I wanted. Rather like painting a very large room say deep green which for the size of the room is acceptable. Use that colour in a small bedroom and it will look hideous. But then not all will agree. In the end it is the perception of the person building the model.

Hope that in part explains what all above have been trying to explain. Phew let me get out of here.

Laurie

[Guest]

It's the FS code I don't get! I work in IT, colours are in either hex, RGB or a web colour code!!

Real men only know 16 colours!

[eddiesolo]

How long is a piece of string. One colour shade will look darker to one person than another even if you have painted it the same colour. As mentioned lighting, natural and artificial all make a difference when painting as the light can be scattered or absorbed differently.

One thing I learnt is what Ian talked about, lighter for smaller, darker for larger apart from that it is what you, as the modeler, perceive to be the correct (or near as damn it) for the piece to be painted in the paints available. Even if the manufacturers managed to get real genuine paint chips for analysis it still will not be 100% as the original when mixed and laid down. So, I work on a 15% error, if it looks 85% then I am happy with it. I suppose it is all down to the modeler and you just have to play about until you get something that you feel works.

Si

[Guest]

It's the FS code I don't get! I work in IT, colours are in either hex, RGB or a web colour code!!Real men only know 16 colours!

Should not worry about it Mike. FS colours are only a string of colours as standard colours. The only use I put them to is finding equivalents.

For instance Humbrol may have an FS number on one of its colours you can then use that (sometimes) to find the same colour in Vallejo paint (providing that has an FS number. Not all the paints have FS numbers so it is only a help in certain cases. Quite frankly I very rarely use FS numbers.

In model making paints i have never seen Hex, RGB or a web colour code. Building contracting paints also have their own paint codes. Just a most confusing world at times Some people are still in feet and inches.

I think the best is to use the FS (Federal Standard) when you come across them as sometimes useful to find the matching paint one manufacturer to another. Otherwise I just forget them.

Laurie