using black on models

[Guest]

Tut all this came two weeks late. At that time I painted my 1/72 Lancaster black black. Not even thought of toning it down.

Lack of experience but I must admit when I finished the black it did look very stark especially after putting a couple of coats of Klear on it.

Looked a lot better after a couple of final coats of matt varnish but it is still black black. That is another half a rung down the ladder again !

Laurie

[stona]

Found the series of piccies. Here's four good 'uns with inexpert comments from me. This is a man who has had a "new" Tamiya Lancaster in the cupboard since it was released!

First a rear quarter view,I noticed the aluminium coloured framing in the rear turret,I'm always told that that was black.

Front quarter,aluminium undercarriage struts,not black. Look at the exhaust staining after a relatively short flight.

A nice side view

Another shot from behind showing how tight the demarcation between the camouflage colours was.

This Lancaster was lost on the night of 22/23 September 1943. She was coded WS-N and served with 9 Sqn. Sadly all her crew,men from Britain,Canada and Australia were lost. The youngest of them was 21 years old,the oldest 25. She was probably a victim of a nightfighter flown by Fw. Hermann Wischnewski of 3./NJ300. He was credited with a Halifax (according to my trusty "Luftwaffe Night Fighter Claims 1939-1945")but this is probably an error.

An all too typical story.

Steve

[Dave W]

Interesting photos steve.I notice the guns are not matt black either.The instructions in all the british bomber kits ive built always said to paint the guns black.The tyres dont look black either.I know tyres are only black because a pigment is added to the rubber.With my limited knowledge i understand the Germans didnt add pigment to the rubber and this is why Luftwaffe aircraft tyres appear grey.Is that correct?.Ive got the Tamiya 1/48 Lanc to build as well.Im waiting untill ive improved my weathering skills before i build it.

[stona]

I'm not sure that the Germans constructed their tyres differently in WWII. I recently saw a tyre from a Bf110 crash site manufactured by Dunlop Germany! I've seen a few recovered tyres and can't honestly say I've noticed a difference between "theirs" and "ours". I always paint my tyres a dark grey rather than black. I used the WEM tyre colour until it dried up in the tin (my fault), now I use RLM66 with a bit of red/brown added.

Guns I do metallic black from Vallejo but I used to do them black and then use the old modellers trick of applying some ground up pencil lead with a finger to give a nice metallic look.

I understand that some WWI era tyres were left unpigmented and appeared a sort of pinky/grey colour.

Cheers

Steve

[Dave W]

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A total coincidence but as we were discussing Black on Bombers,the BBMF Lancaster landed at Southend Airport whilst i was at work.I took some photo's which i thought i would share with you.I found the exhaust stains of particular interest as i want to try and replicate these when i build my !/48 Tamiya Lanc. And you can see some of the rear turret mechanism isnt black as steve pointed out.

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[Guest]

Colours, hues, contrast etc. are very difficult. In architectural training you were taught about the how you can be totally deceived. Choose a colour from a swatch place that colour on a complete wall & it looks totally different from your perception from the swatch. Wow that says a lot from what has been mentioned before about scale.

Colours & contrast change remarkably through out the day depending on the white & black light. Black will look blacker or slightly grey at certain times & white will look whiter or grey.

In artificial lights then yellow lights or blue lights will totally change the result.

In colour & black & white photography the result will be different due to the above & subjects in some instances look totally different. A lot will also depend on the state of the print. Poorly developed & fixed. Fade due to age. Reproduced it will not look the same as the print or as the print was when developed originally.

If you look in your living room into the meeting of two walls. The same colour will look different one wall to the other. Depending on conditions they may even look a totally different colour.

In essence a Lancaster in the summer compared to the winter will have a different black complicated by if it is sunny or dull. Also when the Lancaster came out of the factory black would have looked very black. But give it 3 months in the sun & it will look drab & grey. Driving through the air at near 300 mph then its coat would have become worn & dull with black looking more grey. Recoat your living room 3 years after with the same colour & paint, result you think have I got the right colour.

All that no help at all except it seems it is up to every modeler to make up his own mind as to his preference & who is to say who is right or wrong.

My Lancaster certainly looks very much too black. !!???!!. But then it is brand new out of the factory.

Laurie

[stona]

Nice piccies Dave,thanks for them.

Laurie,I think you are correct about our perception of colour. Colour actually doesn't exist! It's a property our brains assign to different wavelengths of light and our brains can very easily fool us,there are many optical illusions to demonstrate this.

This of course means that what we are discussing as far as painting models goes is a subjective,artistic choice and not an objective scientific one. I know attempts have been made to quantify the scale effect scientifically with scale colour converters etc but frankly I don't buy it. I'm sure there will be some paint chemist somewhere who will disagree but for me it's about what looks good to the eye. That's what we are all observing with,not a spectrometre or other device! If it looks good then it's right.

It's also important to seperate debate about what colour was/is on the original subject and what colour we put on our models as this is entirely different. I'm quite happy to venture an opinion on the original RLM colours but not the colour someone has put on their model (unless they specifically ask for one).

Could I also say what a very civil discussion we've all enjoyed,I've seen this kind of issue get very heated and rude in "other places". It's nice to know that here we can all agree or disagree like grown ups. With a bit of luck this sort of thing will help all of us build better models.

Cheers

Steve (hoping for a bit of play in the test match today)

[Guest]

Yes I agree with you Steve nice to see all the discussions here & the good way they are delivered. Took a time to find this forum & realise now looking at others again why I latched on here. Very pleasant. Also add of course that I see no wrong in laying out your thoughts where others you think may have been wrong or incrorrect or you have that other opinion. I know that I have found my views crystilized or changed or wrong after seeing other views. For instance black black !

If you put 10 replica models together they will look different expressing their builders character. That goes for any art form of which model making is one.

Finally Steve the frustrating test match. Why take tea just as the clouds & rain part. As an once over keen cricketer I found these teas got in the way I was there to play cricket.

Laurie

[stona]

I know that we're veering off topic here but here is a picture of the tyre recovered from a Bf110 crash site that I mentioned earlier. It's taken me a while to find it!

Cheers

Steve