Acrylic Frustrations... Why the Additives?

[Guest]

There may, or may not be an answer to this question, but I am throwing it out there anyway.


When I got back into the hobby a few years ago, I discovered lots of new stuff, including acrylic paints. The idea of acrylics really appealed to me. "Easy" cleanup, no toxic odors, great range of colors. One brand that stuck out was Vallejo. Model Color, and Model Air seemed like the way to go. Since they produce no toxic fumes I didn't have to worry about having a separate spray area, or a noisy hood to vent the fumes from enamels. Seemed like the perfect solution.


As I worked with these paints, I have discovered a few things. In general, they work fine, and when they do, they work great. The best thing about them to me, is the smooth finish. But, occasionally they can be a hassle. When I first started using them things went ok. Model air right out of the bottle worked fine, at least the first few colors I tried. Lately though, things have been not so great.


I don't know if certain colors are more prone to acting up, or if the consistency from bottle to bottle is lacking. For example, last night I was spraying some RLM76 Model Air on a Bf109. After a few seconds, I started getting clogging, and some weird, small splatters. Finally, after much frustration, I turned my brush to my blotter paper and sprayed a heavy dose for a few seconds. A big, stringy blob came out onto the paper.


Real quick, let me insert here a description of my rig and materials. Airbrush currently is a Badger Patriot 105. My previous airbrush was a Paasche single action, siphon feed. Air source is a Co2 tank with adjustable regulator (thereby eliminating any possibility of moisture in the line).


I am very meticulous in my maintenance. I make sure my brush is clean and never let it sit with anything in it for more than a few seconds.


As for the stuff I use with the paint, I have the following Vallejo products:


Thinner


Cleaner


Flow Enhancer


Retarder Medium


Paint


So, after that long winded background, here is the situation in a nutshell. Why, oh why, if this stuff is recommended to make the paint work, isn't it in the bottle with the paint already? I am not a mad scientist and don't really want to have to mix and experiment with every bottle of Vallejo paint I open. know it is a lot to ask (and probably an impossibility), but I would really like to open a bottle of paint, squirt the desired amount in the cup and do the job. It seems that sometimes paint from bottle to bottle in a set packaged together can be different in consistency from bottle to bottle. In a panzer color set of Model Air one bottle was more like Model Color it was so thick.


Does anybody else have these problems? To hear some people (me included after the first few bottles seemed to work like magic), painting with this stuff is no sweat, and cleanup is a snap. I am really open to suggestions here. Cripes, I think this is the single biggest factor in my slow model building/completion. Building is great, but when it comes to painting, I almost look for opportunities for delays. It just becomes a hassle and frustration.

[spanner570]

Brett, I really can't answer, as I truly don't know how to help.


I use both Vallejo colour and air.


One thing I do know and I hope this doesn't come over as flippant, 'cos it's not. Your post is another reason why I stick to brushes - There is no hassle with these acrylic paints, paint flow or cleaning.


I just dip my brush in water and mix to my liking with the paints.........at my time of life I need all the easy options, believe me.


I'm sure, knowing the folks on here, you will get all the help you could want.

[Guest]

Ron, not flippant at all.


As far as brushing goes, both Color and Air work great, which is kind of funny since they are supposed to be for two different application types! But, I actually like to airbrush, but sometimes it can be frustrating.


I think most frustrating is the need for additives. Why not just put them in the bottle at the factory!?


I will await further comments and, hopefully, suggestions, and experiment further.

[john i am]

Ron, not flippant at all.
As far as brushing goes, both Color and Air work great, which is kind of funny since they are supposed to be for two different application types! But, I actually like to airbrush, but sometimes it can be frustrating.


I think most frustrating is the need for additives. Why not just put them in the bottle at the factory!?


I will await further comments and, hopefully, suggestions, and experiment further.

Sorry to hear of your troubles Brett


I use model air paints myself straight from the bottle shaken vigorously with no additives and have not encountered the problems you are experiencing and I can't recommend the vallejo range highly enough.


Hope normal service resumes soon.


Good luck cheers John

[Guest]

Ron, not flippant at all.
As far as brushing goes, both Color and Air work great, which is kind of funny since they are supposed to be for two different application types! But, I actually like to airbrush, but sometimes it can be frustrating.


I think most frustrating is the need for additives. Why not just put them in the bottle at the factory!?


I will await further comments and, hopefully, suggestions, and experiment further.

Probably of no help to you, but I only use Tamiya acrylics with their X20A thinners and touch wood have never had a problem yet. I read many model


magazines and articles and often think people seem to get carried away with all the different makes, products etc which we all seem to want to copy in the some how hope it will make us better model makers or turn out a better looking finished model. In my opinion stick to one or two products and REALY get to know these then you will be able to adjust these to suit your requirements.

[Guest]

Why isn't in the bottle direct from the factory? To make the consumer spend more!


Obviously, were Laurie here I've no doubt he'd find something from the Vallejo website that would explain everything.


But I remember when Vallejo first appeared on the scene. They really began the acrylic modelling paint revolution, with the dropper bottles & quick-dry, hard-wearing paint.


Many people were intrigued by the new stuff & the consensus was that Vallejo were adding some form of plastisizer to their paints. This gave it that filmy quality that anyone who's used it will be familiar with.


The downside to that is it creates inevitable clogging as the paint dries on an airbrush needle tip. Even in the DVDs from Mig Jimenez you can see him regularly wiping the needle with a damp cotton bud.


I also suspect that as the acrylic paint market has taken off & expanded, Vallejo have needed to economize their production, leading to inconsistent quality. We've seen the same with Humbrol paints when they moved production to China.


So.. no takers for simple easy to use enamels then? :P

[john i am]

Why isn't in the bottle direct from the factory? To make the consumer spend more!
Obviously, were Laurie here I've no doubt he'd find something from the Vallejo website that would explain everything.


But I remember when Vallejo first appeared on the scene. They really began the acrylic modelling paint revolution, with the dropper bottles & quick-dry, hard-wearing paint.


Many people were intrigued by the new stuff & the consensus was that Vallejo were adding some form of plastisizer to their paints. This gave it that filmy quality that anyone who's used it will be familiar with.


The downside to that is it creates inevitable clogging as the paint dries on an airbrush needle tip. Even in the DVDs from Mig Jimenez you can see him regularly wiping the needle with a damp cotton bud.


I also suspect that as the acrylic paint market has taken off & expanded, Vallejo have needed to economize their production, leading to inconsistent quality. We've seen the same with Humbrol paints when they moved production to China.


So.. no takers for simple easy to use enamels then? :P

No! :P

[Guest]

When he returned to modeling, happened to me as to you, new materials, new techniques, previously only enamels and brush. Before using these paintings, I read that the MODEL COLOR have added vinyl-acrylic, so I guess consistency of the applied layer, so it will be more "plastic"=obstruction ab


Well, to use safe and high pressure solvent.


In theory using MODEL AIR, that should not happen, because it is special for airbrush. In practice, even with MIG's going to depend a lot on the exact paint you choose.


I hope I've been useful .. greetings and patience

[spanner570]

So.. no takers for simple easy to use enamels then? :P

Yes please. Humbrol or any other modelling enamel, with my brush just dipped in ordinary Turps substitute to dilute the paint. Works a treat. :P

[BarryW]

Charlie. Why is all that flow improver etc not in Model Air you asked. Well it is but there are many variables on airbrushing from humidity issues to your individual airbrush set up. That is why these products are there to enable you to make whatever adjustments are needed for you.


Do not despair though!!! It does take practice and a lot of trial and error.


In addition while the eye dropper bottles do help reduce issues such evaporation and such like nevertheless you can still get gunk in a bottle that does exactly what you describe.


Some people go to great lengths to eliminate the risk of such gunk blocking the a/b but personally I just get on with it, have a good swear, clean the a/b, add a spot of thinner to the bottle shake the hell out of it and carefully pour looking out for more gunk..... Sometimes that is it and fine and dandy and sometime I and up getting a fresh bottle. It is an older part used bottle where this happens.


It is well worth using an a/b to get the results though despite the odd issue !!!!

[rickoshea52]

Well put Barry.

[Guest]

Wow, volks, excellent replies!


Oddly enough when I first got the Model Air paints and tried the first color (RLM76, the very stuff giving me fits now) it sprayed fine right out of the bottle. At that time I was using my Paasche single action with the #3 tip. I was able to get the base layer down on the bottom of a Ta-152 and use it to spray really fine squiggles on the upper fuselage and wings with no problems. Maybe since it is almost out and I have used it a bit I am experiencing these clumps right from the bottle.


I also noticed this after the fact. The 105 comes with a fine needle and tip. The other airbrushes I have bought in the past usually came with medium pre-installed. That might be something as well, although I would think that the paint, properly thinned and in good condition would work with the fine needle/tip setup.


As far as tip cleaning during use, I am used to that and that doesn't bother me much. It is quick and easy.


I am going to tackle another color tonight, so I will see how that goes. I really need to practice more and learn the quirks and such to get it down, because ultimately I really like the finish after it is applied. Very smooth and really sucks down into the recessed detail and just looks great.

[Ian M]

Here's my take on this.


If the paint has not had the living daylights shaken or stired from it, the first few times, the rest of the bottle is going to contain more and more pigment and less suspension liquids.


that might explain part of the problems.


Why are all the additives in the paint from the get go. Retarder, Not everyone wants their paints to dry slowly. Some want them to dry very slowly, and if you add enough retarder, the paint act very much like oil paint! Flow enhancer.... Never had to use it. so dont know about that.


Thinners!!!! Many people say water works fine. Well it does but it makes the paint fragil and daft as it might sound you are not thinning the paint you are diluting it. The difference being, thinners add to the suspending solution while maintaining the chemical integrity. Water dilutes the suspension breaking down the chemical integrity.... Wake up at the back....lol.


Almost done... If using retarder and thinners, mix the retarder with the thinners then mix that mix to the paint.


One last thing to consider. Some pigments are just bigger that others. So they will spray great in one airbrush, but not another.... that has a smaller nozzle.


Ian M

[Guest]

Ian, good stuff. And I think you have something with the shaking/stirring from the start. I found out early on that water is not the way to go with thinning acrylics. Just doesn't seem to work. As a matter of fact, I tried distilled water once with US olive drab Vallejo and it ended up separating the pigments used to make the color. Didn't try that again.

[Ian M]

Easiest way to find out how you black is made. Thin it right out with water. Some are blue base, others green or even red/brown.