German scratches question

[Dr.notknowanything]

Hi to everyone, I don't know If anyone remembers me, but well.. the most important thing that you must know about me is that I'm spanish and not a professional. And I like to make models historically accurate.
Here's my doubt. I have an 1/35 panzer IV aufs H that I want to do with a lot of scratches (big and small ones) making it look very dirty and well... Just like with a lot of wear. And here's my question, I know German tanks had a primer before they painted the tank with the camo, something like hull red and black in the canon if I remember correctly, but if I want to do scratches with the chipping technique they need to be metal color or the primer color? Or that depends on the scratch agressivity? I know I explain things horrendously, but if you luckily did understand what I meant to say, I'll be grateful to hear opinions about it

[wasdale32]

Hi Fidel,
as you say the main primer colour used on German armoured vehicles during WW2 was a reddish brown colour - light chipping or scratches would not usually penetrate the top coat of dark yellow but would show up as a lighter shade. Where the scratch is through the red-brown or green camouflage paint layer it would likely expose the dark yellow. Deeper scratches or heavy wear would usually expose the primer. Very deep scratches might expose bare metal in he centre of the scrape - this would rarely show as bright metal as the surface would quickly oxidise - note that the oxidised surface would normally be a dark gunmetal colour rather than bright silver. If the underlying surface is mild steel such as fenders or exhaust shields they would rust ( new rust is quite bright but old rust tends to be more muted in colour )
You will usually see a lot of bubbling under the paint around deep scratches on mild steel. If you have any heavy construction vehicles near you take a look at how different damage looks.

Bear in mind that the context is important - summer vs winter or Europe vs North Africa for example.

And start with subtle weathering - it is easier to add more than cover up if overdone.

Mainly - if you like the way it turns out then that's a success as it is YOUR model ....

[Dr.notknowanything]

Hi Fidel,
as you say the main primer colour used on German armoured vehicles during WW2 was a reddish brown colour - light chipping or scratches would not usually penetrate the top coat of dark yellow but would show up as a lighter shade. Where the scratch is through the red-brown or green camouflage paint layer it would likely expose the dark yellow. Deeper scratches or heavy wear would usually expose the primer. Very deep scratches might expose bare metal in he centre of the scrape - this would rarely show as bright metal as the surface would quickly oxidise - note that the oxidised surface would normally be a dark gunmetal colour rather than bright silver. If the underlying surface is mild steel such as fenders or exhaust shields they would rust ( new rust is quite bright but old rust tends to be more muted in colour )
You will usually see a lot of bubbling under the paint around deep scratches on mild steel. If you have any heavy construction vehicles near you take a look at how different damage looks.

Bear in mind that the context is important - summer vs winter or Europe vs North Africa for example.

And start with subtle weathering - it is easier to add more than cover up if overdone.

Mainly - if you like the way it turns out then that's a success as it is YOUR model ....

Wow this is exactly what I needed, thanks a lot. its interesting how people learn this things. This is going to be very hard, but I'll try it

[Dr.notknowanything]

Hi Fidel,
as you say the main primer colour used on German armoured vehicles during WW2 was a reddish brown colour - light chipping or scratches would not usually penetrate the top coat of dark yellow but would show up as a lighter shade. Where the scratch is through the red-brown or green camouflage paint layer it would likely expose the dark yellow. Deeper scratches or heavy wear would usually expose the primer. Very deep scratches might expose bare metal in he centre of the scrape - this would rarely show as bright metal as the surface would quickly oxidise - note that the oxidised surface would normally be a dark gunmetal colour rather than bright silver. If the underlying surface is mild steel such as fenders or exhaust shields they would rust ( new rust is quite bright but old rust tends to be more muted in colour )
You will usually see a lot of bubbling under the paint around deep scratches on mild steel. If you have any heavy construction vehicles near you take a look at how different damage looks.

Bear in mind that the context is important - summer vs winter or Europe vs North Africa for example.

And start with subtle weathering - it is easier to add more than cover up if overdone.

Mainly - if you like the way it turns out then that's a success as it is YOUR model ....

Other small question: the back of the schurzen was also painted with a camo?

[Jim R]

Mark has got it spot on :thumb2:
The other important issue with chips and scratches is to consider where they would most likely occur and for scratches, the direction of the scratch.

[Dr.notknowanything]

Mark has got it spot on :thumb2:
The other important issue with chips and scratches is to consider where they would most likely occur and for scratches, the direction of the scratch.

I have a game called war thunder, that has really accurate and very detailed 3d models, I'll have those models as an example of what I have in mind to do. Actually this doubt came out because of the game's 3d models scratches

[wasdale32]

I have a game called war thunder, that has really accurate and very detailed 3d models, I'll have those models as an example of what I have in mind to do. Actually this doubt came out because of the game's 3d models scratches

Fidel

bear in mind that effects on the 3D models in WT will be significantly exaggerated so they stand out on screen and are "artistic interpretation" ( often a composite of many source examples) - real world weathering is more subtle at a distance - however if your intent is to create physical models of the WT vehicles then don't have any qualms about matching their effects. All real-world vehicles are unique so whatever you do is likely to have appeared for real ( just maybe not all on the same vehicle at the same time ... )

[Guest]

The main thing to keep in mind, IMHO, is that real tanks very rarely have scratched or chipped paint at all. In almost any regular army, they will be maintained quite well, so that paint is touched up any time it seems to need it. If you’re talking about late-war German tanks, a lot simply did not get old enough to suffer much wear to the paint …

[Tim Marlow]

Personally, I’ve never seen much photographic evidence for it on wartime vehicles. The ones you do see tend to stand out as a result. Pretty common on early war Spitfire wing walkways though……

[Dr.notknowanything]

Fidel

bear in mind that effects on the 3D models in WT will be significantly exaggerated so they stand out on screen and are "artistic interpretation" ( often a composite of many source examples) - real world weathering is more subtle at a distance - however if your intent is to create physical models of the WT vehicles then don't have any qualms about matching their effects. All real-world vehicles are unique so whatever you do is likely to have appeared for real ( just maybe not all on the same vehicle at the same time ... )

My idea was only using the wt models for the locations of the scratches, and other things like where the mud can be.

[Tim Marlow]

Why not just look up historical photographs? It can be a very absorbing part of the hobby, and you will know what you see is how it was…..

[rickoshea52]

Hi Fidel,
I built a similar tank recently in 1/48 scale. For the main body of the tank I didn’t do too much chipping or scratches. For the shurzen I went a bit harsher on the weathering as I thought they were more exposed to being scratched by bushes, undergrowth, barbed wire etc. I used the tip of a scalpel to lightly scratch horizontally a couple of lines then one or two at different angles. A wash of rust shade applied vertically and oil spots dabbed into deeper scratches then drawn down with a spirit moistened brush.
See the results here - https://www.scale-models.co.uk/threads/rick’s-1-48-tamiya-panzer-iv-ausf-j.39810/#post-626742

[minitnkr]

Bullet strikes/grazes will definitely gouge the armor a bit through the paint.