Varnish, wash, thinner mismatch

[Matt.]

Bit embarrassed after ruining another model after spending tens of hours on it. After a bit of advice on varnish, washes and cleaning off washes, thought I’d done enough research, apparently not.

Gloss lacquer, I’ve tried experimenting with a few varnishes including pledge floor cleaner and ended it settling for alclad 2. I do find it stays soft for days though, is there a better alternative That will give a great smooth finish as this does but with a more robust finish, I can still get fingerprints 4 days after coating if pressed on hard.

Panel wash, just tried using humbrol enamel panel line which was a bit wispy washy so I probably went a bit over board. Is there a better panel line wash that flows nicely down the lines?was thinking about trying tamiya but worried about it being enamel.

Cleaning off panel wash, just tried cleaning off the humbrol panel line wash using enamel thinners and although it did clean it off, my alclad 2 lacquer has gone really soft and also rubbed off.
Any advice of what I’ve done wrong or wrong product mismatch I’m using would be greatly appreciated, I was fairly happy with how things were going but wanting to move onto panel lines and some simple weathering.

thanks Matt

[Guest]

Matt,

Like yourself my usual regime has been gloss clear, fix decals, gloss clear, panel wash, clean up with thinners (Q-tip lightly wet) then satin or matt clear finishing coat, the clear coats being done with a brush. This week, for the first time, I used Ammo acrylic clear instead of my usual Revell product. I noticed that the Ammo clear remained much softer than the Revell, but I persisted with my routine leaving a clear 24 hours between steps. The Airfix wash I used had thickened a bit and didn't run the panel lines as I would normally expect resulting in more cleaning up with thinners. After another 24 hours, I went to apply the final clear coat (again Ammo) and found it 'rolling up' the preceding clear coat so I stopped immediately.

I've put this down to two factors - the Ammo clear had yet to harden and in this case I used too much thinners to tidy up the panel wash which probably softened the previous clear coat even further.

For some time I had been using Ammo panel wash/odourless thinners with my Revell clear and the results were great. This time around I used an Airfix wash as I didn't have the colour I wanted in Ammo.

Frankly, I have been bitten so many times by combining products from different brands and stumbling into some incompatibility. Having recently taken up airbrushing I've started using Ammo acrylic paint and have been quite impressed, however, their clear products are a big disappointment and I'll be sticking to Revell in future.

I haven't got a definitive answer to your own problem but perhaps my own comments will help you work it out.

Cheers

[Mr Bowcat]

As a general rule you want to use different types of varnish and weathering products. By this I mean if you are going to use enamel weathering products, use an acrylic varnish so the thinners used for cleaning up the enamel weathering won't effect the varnish.

Personally I use Winsor & Newton acrylic varnishes and various enamel weathering products, but mainly Mig & AK.

[Jim R]

All paints, varnishes, washes etc take far longer to cure than you may think. This is especially true of solvent based products such as lacquers, oils and enamels but even water based acrylics take time. The surface may become touch dry quickly, acrylics within a few minutes, but much longer is needed for things to cure and fully harden. Think of oil painters who leave varnishing their work for months. Where the model is makes a difference. Paint cures far quicker in a warm room than in a cold shed. If, as Bob says, you layer up with products which have differing solvents you can get away with a shorter curing time although even then problems can occur. For example an acrylic, water based varnish over an enamel base that is not full cured can lead to the varnish going milky, cracking or not adhering well.
Patience and a light box really help. My light box is a one of those large plastic storage boxes with a few holes in the lid and a low power light bulb at one end. Models stay in there after painting/varnishing etc for a day or so before I consider another layer. I can honestly say I now have no incompatibility problems.


I hope you sort out your issues because painting etc often comes after weeks spent carefully building a model and it can be heartbreaking when the final stages go wrong.
Jim

[Guest]

... painting etc often comes after weeks spent carefully building a model and it can be heartbreaking when the final stages go wrong.

Amen to that, Jim. It's happened far to often to myself but it's part of the learning process. However, the more I've starting to get the majority of pleasure from the construction/painting bit, I'm not as shattered as I used to be when something goes awry. When I was younger I was anxious to get a model finished and on display, but that - for some reason - is no longer the case. I often repeat building the same model to put the experience of the first one into a better job on the second.

Thanks for your post which is most helpful.

[Dave Ward]

Murfie,
we've all been there, done that! The thing is to move on, and don't make the same mistakes again - I have to say that since moving to only acrylics, I find finishing models easier than enamels - the varnishes, washes etc all dry much faster than enamels ( although I still leave varnishes for 24 hours to really harden off ). All I can say with mismatches is just try one maker, if it still happens, it's something wrong with your technique! :tongue-out3:
Dave

[Guest]

Dave,

Ta for the comments. My main failing some time back, was not being aware that there are three types of acrylic paints - water based, alcohol based and lacquer based. Mixing those three in ignorance was disastrous. Recently, I've had very little compatibility problems. But the use for the first time of Ammo acrylic clear coats upset the apple cart. It seems very soft even after 3-4 days of drying. And the Ammo thinners I used for the panel line wash made it even softer. I'm just going to revert to my trusted Revell acrylic clears and give the Ammo a miss.

[Matt.]

Thanks Jim, Dave, Murfie, Bob,
Really appreciate your comments and time
Just ordered some VMS gloss and mig panel line from scale model shop as well as some other supplies and found some Winsor & Newton Galeria. Got a couple of donor models now so going to have to spent some trial evenings.Thanks again.
Will let you know how I get on.
Matt

[Matt.]

Been having a play with various varnishes, washes etc.
I can’t get a better Gloss finish than with alclad 2,
I can apply mig panel line that goes down great on the alclad. I think the only issue I have still ongoing is that when cleaning off the mig or humbrol panel line with enamel thinners its eating into the alclad 2 lacquer.
Anyone got any ides?
Just tried washing off with Various different things I have kicking around and I either don’t touch the wash at all or it cleans the wash but also damages the varnish.
Thanks Matt

[Guest]

Matt, what is the brand/type of the enamel thinners you are using?

[Matt.]

Hi Murfie, it’s humbrol enamel thinners.
Still playing and just got a good gloss using Winsor & Newton with about 30% tamiya acrylic thinners. Not sure if that’s a good match but decided to have an experimental day.
Will see how that drys and withstands the thinners in a few days

[Guest]

Give Ammo odourless thinners a try if that doesn't work. After more investigation I've found that the problem I had at the start of this thread was caused by a reaction between Ammo acrylic clear and Micro Set decal setter which surprised me, but not the first time that had happened. Airfix Decalfix gave me a similar problem some time back. I'm fast getting to the stage where I'm going to abandon post panel shading and opt for pre panel shading, though I have one more radical acrylic only method of doing post panel shading left to try. Will let you know how that goes along with the details if it works out.

Cheers!

[Tim Marlow]

Humbrol thinners is very “hot”, so it’s not really ideal for that use I’d say. If you’re careless with it the kit can actually come apart.....
I would second Murfie’s suggestion, or the one I’ve used in the past, Winsor and Newton Sansodor odourless oil thinners.

[Matt.]

Hi Murfie, is this the Ammo thinners
Hi Tim, is this the Winsor thinners.
I’m willing to give both ago because I’m getting good varnish results with Winsor and I’m getting better results with Ammo mig panel line.
Just painted a few donor models for more experimenting next week.
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[Tim Marlow]

Yep, that’s the baby.....