Varnish, wash, thinner mismatch

[Guest]

My experimentation with a tube of water mixable oil colour for post panel shading turned out unsatisfactory.

Matt, I also remembered that when I was trying out thinners to totally remove acrylic paint, I did find that Humbrol thinners turned dried acrylic paint coats into a sticky mess, so definitely that shouldn't be used to clean up post panel shading as Tim suggested. Your two new thinners should be much better.

[Matt.]

Quick update on some more experimenting, quick paint and varnish on mosquito wings
Left to right

Winsor and Newton Galeria - Good glossy finish but effected by enamel thinners. Struggled with 0.35 nozzle as it’s quite thick.

VMS - not quite as glossy but still ok, feels totally hard and not soft to the touch. Airbrushed ok but still effected by enamel thinners

Pledge - airbrushed with ease, least glossy out of the 4 varnishes I tried but stood up to enamel thinners the best

Alclad 2 - airbrushed with ease, gives the most glossy finish by far but is soft to the touch even 3 days after spraying (easy to leave thumb print in it) is effected by enamel thinners.

Note: enemal thinners was Humbrol, still waiting for new thinners to arrive, will add how that goes once it arrives and tested.

[Komedy]

Here is my approach to this stage. I paint with MRP usually oversprayed with leveling thinners to get the best smooth base for a gloss coat.

Then Super Clear II gloss, two coats again oversprayed with leveling thinners. Dries in no time and hard as nails.

Apply decals and super clear again. Then rub back with 2500 or 3000 grit to smooth decals.

Then a heavily thinned Tamiya XF colour for modulation if that's the look I'm going for.

At this point Vallejo Acrylic Satin Gloss two coats before applying the enamel washes. Satin helps the washes stick if that's the effect I'm after.

As that gloss coat is an acrylic no issues with washes or thinners attacking what's below.

If you are using a hot gloss coat before washes then you need water based washes like Flory etc.

The pledge worked for you as it's an acrylic gloss

[BarryW]

This is what I use starting from the basis that lacquers are by far the best performers through the airbrush.

First: get rid of sanding rubble, finger grease and other contaminants from the surface with a good wipe of isopropanol alcohol.

Primer:
MRP lacquer based primer though I consider Stynylrex (and white labelled versions) a decent alternative.

Base coat:
Always MRP, these are the best airbrush paints so why use anything else.

The MRP lacquer metallisers are as good as the paints. So these are used where spraying metallics.

Detail painting with hairy stick.
Water based acrylics are best for this so I use the MRP water based range or Vallejo. These work well over MRP, lacquers would be a problem in re-activating the sprayed colour.

For metallics though I use AKI’s wax metallisers which thin with enamel thinners. The coverage is excellent but you have to make sure that you apply a decent varnish coat over them before weathering.

Varnish.
ideally a water based varnish would be best such as Alclad Aqua or Vallejo would be best over MRP but I have often found that these will pool and be problematical. I therefore use lacquers as these varnishes spray as faultlessly as the paint. Therefore it is MRP. Care has to be taken though not to ladown heavy coats because if you do the paint will be reactivated and will be a problem. So these are used in very light coats building up slowly. Thee great thing is that MRP provide a matt, semi-matt, gloss and semi-gloss enabling you to get the sheen that you want, not necessarily the same all over a model.

I do keep some enamel varnish as I find this useful to use with a hairy stick to replicate glass dials and similar.

Weathering washes
Always over varnished surfaces. The only exception being the MRP metallisers, I try not to varnish over these to preserve the metallic effect. I use AKI and Mig enamel washes. These tend to work well over the lacquer varnish, run nicely in panel lines and removing the surplus does not remove any varnish. For safety I do leave the varnish a longer curing time than I usually do, an hour or so rather than 30 minutes, before washes.

So water, lacquer and enamel products can work well together with each having strengths that are complimentary to each other.

[Matt.]

Here is my approach to this stage. I paint with MRP usually oversprayed with leveling thinners to get the best smooth base for a gloss coat.

Then Super Clear II gloss, two coats again oversprayed with leveling thinners. Dries in no time and hard as nails.

Apply decals and super clear again. Then rub back with 2500 or 3000 grit to smooth decals.

Then a heavily thinned Tamiya XF colour for modulation if that's the look I'm going for.

At this point Vallejo Acrylic Satin Gloss two coats before applying the enamel washes. Satin helps the washes stick if that's the effect I'm after.

As that gloss coat is an acrylic no issues with washes or thinners attacking what's below.

If you are using a hot gloss coat before washes then you need water based washes like Flory etc.

The pledge worked for you as it's an acrylic gloss

Thanks Warren, I think the 4 varnishes I’m playing with are acrylic, all my issues appear when cleaning up the enamel washes with Humbrol enamel thinners, my varnish is turning soft and sticky. I’m really hoping the other thinners I have on order help fix my issue, if not I’m going to try the vallejo acrylic that you use. Thanks Matt

[Matt.]

This is what I use starting from the basis that lacquers are by far the best performers through the airbrush.

First: get rid of sanding rubble, finger grease and other contaminants from the surface with a good wipe of isopropanol alcohol.

Primer:
MRP lacquer based primer though I consider Stynylrex (and white labelled versions) a decent alternative.

Base coat:
Always MRP, these are the best airbrush paints so why use anything else.

The MRP lacquer metallisers are as good as the paints. So these are used where spraying metallics.

Detail painting with hairy stick.
Water based acrylics are best for this so I use the MRP water based range or Vallejo. These work well over MRP, lacquers would be a problem in re-activating the sprayed colour.

For metallics though I use AKI’s wax metallisers which thin with enamel thinners. The coverage is excellent but you have to make sure that you apply a decent varnish coat over them before weathering.

Varnish.
ideally a water based varnish would be best such as Alclad Aqua or Vallejo would be best over MRP but I have often found that these will pool and be problematical. I therefore use lacquers as these varnishes spray as faultlessly as the paint. Therefore it is MRP. Care has to be taken though not to ladown heavy coats because if you do the paint will be reactivated and will be a problem. So these are used in very light coats building up slowly. Thee great thing is that MRP provide a matt, semi-matt, gloss and semi-gloss enabling you to get the sheen that you want, not necessarily the same all over a model.

I do keep some enamel varnish as I find this useful to use with a hairy stick to replicate glass dials and similar.

Weathering washes
Always over varnished surfaces. The only exception being the MRP metallisers, I try not to varnish over these to preserve the metallic effect. I use AKI and Mig enamel washes. These tend to work well over the lacquer varnish, run nicely in panel lines and removing the surplus does not remove any varnish. For safety I do leave the varnish a longer curing time than I usually do, an hour or so rather than 30 minutes, before washes.

So water, lacquer and enamel products can work well together with each having strengths that are complimentary to each other.

Hi Barry, can I ask what you use to remove the surplus enamel wash?
My routine at the moment is.
Tamiya primer decanted from a spray can then airbrushed, tamiya XF, gloss coat with alclad 2, decals, alclad 2 then finish with a 50/50 mix of humbrol matt and tamiya lacquer thinners.
everyting going really well with the above untilI wanted to try adding a wash for the first time and the varnish.
It’s annoying that my stumbling block is right at the end process, I dread to think how many hours I spent on my Brewster to ruin it at the end.
cheers
Matt

[BarryW]

Hi Barry, can I ask what you use to remove the surplus enamel wash?
My routine at the moment is.
Tamiya primer decanted from a spray can then airbrushed, tamiya XF, gloss coat with alclad 2, decals, alclad 2 then finish with a 50/50 mix of humbrol matt and tamiya lacquer thinners.
everyting going really well with the above untilI wanted to try adding a wash for the first time and the varnish.
It’s annoying that my stumbling block is right at the end process, I dread to think how many hours I spent on my Brewster to ruin it at the end.
cheers
Matt

I use ordinary white spirit. You only need a brush to be dampened with it.

[Komedy]

Hi Barry, can I ask what you use to remove the surplus enamel wash?
My routine at the moment is.
Tamiya primer decanted from a spray can then airbrushed, tamiya XF, gloss coat with alclad 2, decals, alclad 2 then finish with a 50/50 mix of humbrol matt and tamiya lacquer thinners.
everyting going really well with the above untilI wanted to try adding a wash for the first time and the varnish.
It’s annoying that my stumbling block is right at the end process, I dread to think how many hours I spent on my Brewster to ruin it at the end.
cheers
Matt

Matt can you just confirm exactly which Alclad 2 you are using - is it ALC-600-60 or ALC-310-60.

Warren

[Matt.]

Matt can you just confirm exactly which Alclad 2 you are using - is it ALC-600-60 or ALC-310-60.

Warren

Its this one Warren,been getting best gloss finish but it stays soft for days

[Matt.]

I use ordinary white spirit. You only need a brush to be dampened with it.

Hi Barry,
Wow, all varnishes stood up to white spirit. Thank you so much.
With all the trials I’ve done over last 7 days I’m going to give VMS a go as it airbrushed fairly easy, gave a fairly decent gloss (going to matt most things back down at the end anyway), gave the toughest surface in a very quick time and panel wash flowed well. Just putting a few decals on to make sure no reaction with decal solutions.
Thanks again. Matt

[Guest]

For gloss varnish acrylic go for Alclad 11 Laquer Aqua Gloss Clear. Recommeneded to me a couple of years back.

Not had one problem. airbrushes perfectly & easy to clean airbrushes.

Very thin does not clog panel lines. Dries quickly very quickly. Very understanding if you over do it. Dries & smoothes out magically.

[Matt.]

Winsor and Newton low odour solvent turned up and pleased to say it cleans off the wash without touching the varnish. It doesn’t wash it off as quickly as standard white spirits but I’m not getting moaned at “what’s that smell”

[Matt.]

For gloss varnish acrylic go for Alclad 11 Laquer Aqua Gloss Clear. Recommeneded to me a couple of years back.

Not had one problem. airbrushes perfectly & easy to clean airbrushes.

Very thin does not clog panel lines. Dries quickly very quickly. Very understanding if you over do it. Dries & smoothes out magically.

Hi Laurie, sorry for not replying sooner been a busy week, is the alclad 11 lacquer Aqua you use in a glass jar? This is what I’d read about about a year ago but mine is in a big plastic bottle and takes days to dry. I think there maybe 2 products and I bought the wrong one. If so I’ll add a bottle to my next order. Thanks Matt

[Guest]

I know it's a bit late in proceedings for this thread but I've finally worked out and emulated the problem that I had when I answered Matt's initial post. I've just gone through a repeat of -

a) Ammo One-shot primer (grey) - 2 days drying (airbrushed)
b) Ammo acrylic paint coats (s) - 2 days drying (airbrushed)
c) Ammo acrylic clear gloss 2 coats 48 hours apart (4 days drying) (soft hairy stick)
d) Application of Micro Set - residue wiped and dried.
At this point there was no contamination of the coats nor any evidence thereof, then ...
e) Application of Micro Sol - residue washed with water and dried

which immediately demonstrated that Micro Sol reacted and cut into the Ammo clear coat and by doing so left a noticeable colour change due to the destruction of the gloss finish.

(sigh) Just another product incompatibility to deal with! And up to this point I had been very pleased with Micro Sol and it's performance, as well as being enamoured with the finish of the Ammo clear products.

[Tim Marlow]

With the micro sol Try another clear coat over the top, it should restore the finish....